Prong Collars

[Steve K9Pro]

E:

where it was suggested that the dog receive the correction at the same time as the command.

K9: can you show me where that was said? I cant see it.. It may happen when your about to start weaning, but not at the start.

E:

what I know as "double trouble".... I'm guessing you'd be familiar with that term, K9?

K9: nope, not familiar with the term, can you explain?

[Sonic]

Myszka or K9 can you let me know how you go about training the recall.

"I have used the sequence of command, wait for comply, correct reward in the past."

I have also used this method but am always willing to learn a better way.

PS: I tried very hard to put that quote in but couldn't get it right so ended up just copying and pasting. How on earth do you do that??

[MonElite]

E:

where it was suggested that the dog receive the correction at the same time as the command.

K9: can you show me where that was said? I cant see it.. It may happen when your about to start weaning, but not at the start.

Perhaps it could have been read from one of my posts (about the dog jumping to the car)

Im am sorry if I confused anyone by my poor abilities to explain the method.

The dog KNOWS the command just chooses not to do it.

Hence go back a step (not to the learning stage but to the training stage) and issue a correction immiediatelly or almost at the same time as command, to improve speed of the compliance.

[Erny]

If I was proactive I would open the door walk faster, check while I say hop and he would not think twice about not jumping into the car.

K9 - Here 'tis ....

[MonElite]

Myszka or K9 can you let me know how you go about training the recall.

I dont know if Im correct, but I will assume that K9s method is copyright and I will not disclose it.

All I can tell you is that it works. Of course it depends on you and the efforts you are prepared to put in, its training not magic.

Take a ticket and stand in the line to see K9

[MonElite]

If I was proactive I would open the door walk faster, check while I say hop and he would not think twice about not jumping into the car.

K9 - Here 'tis ....

thats right.

He KNOWS the command this is not teaching a new word.

Yes the choice of words was not very good on my part. Instead of "while" I perhaps should have said immiediately after, or a split second after.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: yes, well as I didnt say it....

AT the beginning, the action line may be command (delay) correct (guideance) - comply reward.

As time goes by the delay gets shorter & the guidance is not required.

When the command & correction need to be given almost simulatneously, I add more distraction.

wait for comply

K9: what I mean by active is that I dont wait for the dog to tell me the next step, be it correction for non compliance,or reward for comnpliance, I have my own steps & they will be carried out, regardless of the dogs actions. The dog can affect the timing only.

[KitKat]

Take a ticket and stand in the line to see K9

I'm just waiting for Mr K9 to come back to QLD

This thread has gotten very interesting to say the least

[MonElite]

K9 - your signature shoud say

1. Dog trainer blah blah what you already have

2. Casual advisor on training your OH

3. Spell checker extrodinaire, selector of appropriate words to express "stuff"

Mine should say;

1. English is my second language, if you dont understand feel free to pick my sentences to bits.

2. snake charmer

3. Owner of stressed killer dobe

[Steve K9Pro]

K9:

[Erny]

thats right. He KNOWS the command this is not teaching a new word.

Yes the choice of words was not very good on my part. Instead of "while" I perhaps should have said immiediately after, or a split second after.

Myszka - if you command THEN correct for non-compliance, then you are, in K9's words as they were to me, being reactive instead of proactive and your actions are being driven by your dog.

Either Myszka has a different terminology interpretation to K9 or I am steadily getting more and more confused by the explanations being posted here.

Edited to get rid of some of the unneccessary quotes on quotes on quotes

Edited June 15, 2005 by Erny

[MonElite]

"issue a command & immediately move your arm back, dog will get a leash correction no matter how fast he moves."

this is how it should have been worded - these are not my words BTW.

NOTE - this is to improve the speed of the excercise not to teach the dog new word.

[Erny]

"issue a command & immediately move your arm back, dog will get a leash correction no matter how fast he moves."

this is how it should have been worded - these are not my words BTW.

NOTE - this is to improve the speed of the excercise not to teach the dog new word.

Seems to me that is the same as, say, phase 3 of my "hypothetical scenario" set out in my post of 12.06am 15.6.2005. Difference being the handlers' attitude.

Instead of thinking:

1. I'll command

2. I'll wait one second (example time frame)

3. I'll correct if no compliance

You can think:

1. I'll command

2. I'll correct

This "attitude/thinking" would actually speed up the process of our handling leaving only a milli-second for the dog to comply, thereby transmitting the message to the dog that it must work to become faster than that milli-second.

The process otherwise appears to be the same, as, even though in the second process described above we're not actually thinking of allowing the dog to comply before we give the correction, there is still that milli-second gap between "command" and the "correction" actually reaching the dog.

K9 - assume you will read this .... is this on the mark?

Edited June 15, 2005 by Erny

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: it may be the same in some instances to the dog, however when this is explained to people, they seem to watch the dog for compliance too long.

I think being driven by the dogs actions adds another place to go wrong.

Eg: what happens if I command, the dog starts to sit & then doesnt .."

then I grab leash & correct, the moment is gone...

I tell them, command, then pop pop pop on the leash until the dog is in the position. Then immediatly release & reward.

When repeated as little as 4 - 6 reps, you will see a noiticeable speed improvement on the dog.

Any dog, give it a try, method one where you wait & see, & method mine, in which you dont...

You will see improvement, I have only tried a few hundred thousand times lol...

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: something I mention to many people when Im running a workshop is how to create a mindset in the dog, & how important that is.

Whether its having the dog believe that it cant catch the neighbours cat without my approval or that it cant break the stay, its a mindset creation that I believe is a requirement for high reliability dogs.

Now whilst some may scrath their head to grasp this, I give this example: -

If I have $500 in my wallet, & I remove it from my back pocket & throw it on the roof of your house, I then say to all attendants of the seminar, the first one to jump onto the roof in a single bound can have the cash.

No one moves... why? because they dont believe the can make the jump, its a mind set.....

[SamAdams]

very helpful information. I notice my dog is starting to really slow down the commands he knows. I give the command..he will look at me for a minute .. then very slowly sit...

Sam

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: you may also look at what type of reward motivation is available....

[MonElite]

If I have $500 in my wallet, & I remove it from my back pocket & throw it on the roof of your house, I then say to all attendants of the seminar, the first one to jump onto the roof in a single bound can have the cash.

No one moves... why? because they dont believe the can make the jump, its a mind set.....

I will only add to this that if the $500 is replaced with $5milion some will attempt.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: they may, but will soon be met with failure & give up, thats just part of the training.

Create a mindset that a Patrol dog can beat 5 attackers, give him the skills & he will, because his mind wont let him down.

For stopping a dog from doing something, it must fail in every attempt until it no longer tries, to get a dog to do something, it must succeed & gain the rewards every single time....

[MonElite]

oh yes I read the rules of the jump again...

I was thinking more along the lines of - get the ladder if you smart enough.

Going now, my parachute is closing for today. LOL

For those that didnt get the parachute line...

The mind is like a parachute, works a lot better if its open.