Prong Collars

[MonElite]

There is a difference between the chain gently moving along the links in general movement and the actual "zing" preceding a correction.

I was talking about this.

My dog is on the level of CD trailing, so yes he knows a sit comand, plus several others.

[MonElite]

Myszka - I think if you read all my posts you'll recognise that I never said there was anything wrong with the prong collar.  In fact, you'll see that I support it.  The discussion pertaining to the check chain arose as a result of one of the posters commenting he/she didn't like them, and my responding by saying they had their place and uses.

I must have mistaken you for that other poster - my appologies.

A little photo under a nick name makes all the difference hint hint

Edited June 10, 2005 by myszka

[Erny]

A little photo under a nick name makes all the difference hint hint

My mug, or my dogs!?

[haven]

And how do computer dummies do it?

[Erny]

There is a difference between the chain gently moving along the links in general movement and the actual "zing" preceding a correction. 

I was talking about this.

My dog is on the level of CD trailing, so yes he knows a sit comand, plus several others.

In response to K9's suggestion that dogs might not recognise the difference between the sound of the links moving in general movement and the sound of the links "zinging", as they would in a correction or self-correction, I see a vast difference between the two.

Can you not?

Is this what you're driving at myszka?

[Guest Tess32]

Erny - will continue our convo in a thread I have started previously about my girl.

Nat

[MonElite]

In response to K9's suggestion that dogs might not recognise the difference between the sound of the links moving in general movement and the sound of the links "zinging", as they would in a correction or self-correction, I see a vast difference between the two.

Can you not?

I agree with K9.

IMHO dog will hear the links moving and consider this the same in any situation.

[MonElite]

And how do computer dummies do it?

I imagine you are talking about the avatar photo.

Click on your own nickname, click on avatar options, than you get all info about the photo you need. choose from galery already provided or upload your own.

[haven]

Yeah I tried to upload a pic of my dogs but it was the wrong type of file

[Erny]

I agree with K9. IMHO dog will hear the links moving and consider this the same in any situation.

Perhaps - but, as conditioning to the "zing" (if the dog is going to) is accidental, that would mean that any such dog is going to react to the sound of the check chain links moving. In my experience, the only dogs that have an aversive reaction to the check chain is due to the way their owners have taken them off, causing head shyness.

When I get out my girls check chain, she comes running with tail wagging and actually puts her own head into the chain while I hold it. She's also very happy on walks (as are the other few dogs who have conditioned to the "zing"), off and on lead. So go figure .... ?

[MonElite]

Mine not only will force his head through a check chain, a limited slip collar, loves his flat one with a tag, but he will attempt to push his head through a closed prong ;-) and he probably would if I let him :-)

So IMHO corrections or not, he knows that we are going somewhere and thats what he is excited about.

[Erny]

Precisely - his drive is obviously not blocked by the mere sound of the links as they move.

[MonElite]

Precisely - his drive is obviously not blocked by the mere sound of the links as they move.

perhaps he has stronger nerves than some...

IMHO to my dog a sound of a chain, regardles of what sound it makes is an association with an outing, hence he is happy.

Whether it is trainig, walk or whatever, he knows that he gets corrections but than rewards so he is happy, I still dont belive he knows the difference between the sounds.

[Steve K9Pro]

E:

I feel the problem here is that you are very selective about picking pieces of quotation from a sentence and thereby removing the very essence of the context for which they were written.

K9: I think I quoted the entire sentence, but if I havent, the section I quoted & replied to still stands, over correcting any dog will shut it down.

E:

In response to K9's suggestion that dogs might not recognise the difference between the sound of the links moving in general movement and the sound of the links "zinging", as they would in a correction or self-correction, I see a vast difference between the two.

Can you not?

K9: I can for sure, but I can also feel the difference between the zing of the chain & an actual correction too... So what we can feel or hear isnt really important.

That zing of the collar is another reason I dont like checks, it adds this (what I would call) problem.

E:

Perhaps - but, as conditioning to the "zing" (if the dog is going to) is accidental, that would mean that any such dog is going to react to the sound of the check chain links moving.

K9: I would tend to suggest that the dogs that react to the zing of the chain have at some stage been over corrected & or are nervous of corrections.

E:

When I get out my girls check chain, she comes running with tail wagging and actually puts her own head into the chain while I hold it.

K9: so she hasnt paired the correction to the collar, but the zing from it.

[Erny]

K9: ..... over correcting any dog will shut it down.

Which is what I've already been saying .... (refer next 2 Erny quotes)

Erny:  5.6.2005  So, in some cases and for some of the times, it is only necessary to create the "zip" sound and to the dog the correction is applied.

Erny:  9.6.2005  And an effective correction is one that changes the dog's behaviour. So, it depends on the dog you're working with, IMO. For a very sensitive dog (as mine is), the "zip" sound often effects her as would a stronger correction on a different dog, depending, of course, on the environment and the situation.

K9: .... but I can also feel the difference between the zing of the chain & an actual correction too... So what we can feel or hear isnt really important.

You're right - it's what the dog feels or hears, how they perceive it and whether it changes their "unwanted" behaviour, that is.

K9: I would tend to suggest that the dogs that react to the zing of the chain have at some stage been over corrected & or are nervous of corrections.

It is where the dog has found the physical correction sufficiently aversive. Where the paired "zing" then becomes aversive enough to alter the dog's unwanted behaviour, the dog is spared of unneccessary, more physical applications.

K9: so she hasnt paired the correction to the collar, but the zing from it.

Yes - she's paired the zing to the correction and now, in many situations (not all, mind - depends on the environment she's in), the "zing" has become an adequate level of correction. .... and I have found this with some other "sensitive" dogs.

[pgm]

Yes  - she's paired the zing to the correction and now, in many situations (not all, mind - depends on the environment she's in), the "zing" has become an adequate level of correction. .... and I have found this with some other "sensitive" dogs.

Erny, I have used the check chain myself to train and have not used the 'zing method' as far as I am aware. The trouble with your above comments is the fact that you are still using the 'zing' to correct your dog. An adequate correction is a correction that no longer needs to be applied. If you are still correcting your dog your corrections are not adequate. The way a dog avoids correction is by doing the right thing. The correction should be paired with bad behavior, not a zing.

Edited June 14, 2005 by pgm

[Steve K9Pro]

E:

Which is what I've already been saying .... (refer next 2 Erny quotes)

QUOTE 

Erny:  5.6.2005  So, in some cases and for some of the times, it is only necessary to create the "zip" sound and to the dog the correction is applied.

QUOTE 

Erny:  9.6.2005  And an effective correction is one that changes the dog's behaviour. So, it depends on the dog you're working with, IMO. For a very sensitive dog (as mine is), the "zip" sound often effects her as would a stronger correction on a different dog, depending, of course, on the environment and the situation.

K9: none of these refer to shutting the dog down, in another post you did say, over correcting your dog would shut it down, the simple point Im making is that OVER correcting any dog will shut it down.

Its not important though.

E:

You're right - it's what the dog feels or hears, how they perceive it and whether it changes their "unwanted" behaviour, that is.

K9: My issue with warnings is that, if you follow through, you may be double correcting, or if you dont follow through, your weakening your corrections...

When training this method, I dont give a command, then see if the dog complies, then decide on a correction or not, it recieves a correction every time until I have reached the level of compliance I require at the level of distraction Im likely to find.

I find this a quicker way to get the dog to the proofing or "trained" stage & I can do away with corrections all together.

I also find that this provides a higher level of reliability.

[Erny]

K9:  the simple point Im making is that OVER correcting any dog will shut it down.

K9 - You seem to now be stating my point. This is why, with the chain, I can use the advantage of a "zing" that has been previously paired by the dog to the correction, provided the "zing" is perceived by the dog as an "effective" correction. This avoids over-correction (follow through to physical correction) which, as I have stated earlier would only inhibit my dog's drive (or, as you now say "shut it down") if the dog & environment is not "loaded".

I use "corrections" in the same way you do in training. As with all corrections, they are required to be "effective" for the dog - therefore the intensity varies from one dog to the next.

My corrections are not "weakening" if the correction is "effective".

[MonElite]

Erny - so what happend off lead? when the dog hears no zing?

[Erny]

Erny - so what happend off lead? when the dog hears no zing?

The same thing when your dog's off-leash and doesn't feel the physical correction.