Prong Collars

[Steve K9Pro]

E:

I expect because of 'bad press' and the misconception of its use and effect by the common public.

K9: yes & some just like to say they do one thing, when they do another... lol.

E:

I disagree - if the intensity is not at a level that is aversive to the dog, then the correction is meaningless or ignored by the dog. Of course consistency is imperative, given that dogs learn from patterns.

K9: then maybe you can tell me whats aversive about the chain singing through the ring?

E:

Nervous? No. Wisely cautious? Yes. Hence I have experience (at varying levels) in the use of many pieces of equipment, from headcollar, checkchain, prong collar, to e-collar ... all used on different dogs for different reasons.

K9: in my post Im not actually referring to you, but many. Some people feel they are getting great results, until they compare those to others results via a differnet method.

The comparision is required to ensure ones training levels are high ona world scale, rather than ones own personal history..

E:

No, I don't. I'm always searching for overall improvement.

K9: sorry again, "you" in this post is not referring to you personally, I havent seen your work to comment.

E:

Why? Because generally one piece of equipment achieves the better result with most dogs?

K9: I feel the idea behind a piece of equipment is to get results with as little effort as possible. I feel a prong collar on any dog vs a check chain is a better tool, not because it provides a higher level of correction, but more levels.

E:

That's why my mind is always open ....

K9: as is mine, until I have fully researched something I keep it open, but when I have made an informed decision, I dont like to re open the case over & over again, unless circumstances change.

Edited June 10, 2005 by K9 Force

[Steve K9Pro]

W:

if you all think they are so good please explain why they are banned...

K9: firstly, I cant see where anyone here declared how "good" we are?

Secondly, if your going to jump into defence drive every time someone doesnt agree with you, you will spend a lot of time there...

They are banned due to ignorance, thats already been discussed.

W:

and don't tell me its just cause they look nasty...

K9: I dont think you will have a lot of success here either if you tell people what they can & cant say in their posts.

W:

Well i don't use them to pull the dog around i use food or toys to get the dogs attendion and praise when they stop pulling i find you only need to give the sightest tuck on the lead and the dog will respond, this is based on beginner dogs.

.

K9: If life was only about training "beginner" dogs, Im sure the flat collar is all that ever be required, but as it isnt, other tools can be useful.

K9:

[Ciara]

wagalot Posted on 10th Jun 2005 - 12:55 PM

if people find that these prong collors work for them, because there dogs are series pullers, thats great go ahead and use them.

In reference to my post, I believe I wrote:

He stopped his occasional pulling

My dog didn't pull all the time, in fact, most of the time he trotted along nicely on a loose lead, it was the fact that he sometimes pulled in certain situations.

I looked at the prong collar as more of a communication tool to get the dog to re-focus and relax.

He gets extremely excited when he see's his prong, whereas my Chihuahua freaks out at the sight of his doggy jacket.

You tell me which looks scarier.

[Erny]

K9: then maybe you can tell me whats aversive about the chain singing through the ring?

Because, through pairing, it is possible for a dog to be conditioned to perceive the sound of the chain "zinging" as if it had received the correction itself. This tends to only work, however, on an intermittent schedule.

With my (adopted at 7yo) girl (who, I might add, is one of the most sensitive dogs I've ever had to work with, and who's behaviour is sometimes inhibited merely because she is concerned about making mistakes), the sound of the chain is an effective correction - anything more intense provokes generalised inhibition. (Again, depending on the circumstances and environment at the time.)

[pgm]

if you all think they are so good please explain why they are banned...

and don't tell me its just cause they look nasty...

Why not? Then again, perhaps you can explain why the legislation describes prong collars as a collar with prongs designed to puncture and/or bruise the skin.

The collars are manifestly not designed to puncture or bruise the skin, anymore than a check chain is designed to choke a dog.

To say a check chain is designed to choke a dog is to show one's ignorance - to say the above about prong collars is likewise to show one's ignorance.

Apart from ignorance can you SHOW any other reason why they are banned?

[Erny]

And I think the ignorance involved in the decision to ban the prong collars in Victoria is amplified by a State Government's MP's admission that submissions by qualified dog trainers and dog trainers' governing bodies as to the virtues of the prong collar, were not even read, least of all considered.

[pgm]

State Government's MP's admission that submissions by qualified dog trainers and dog trainers' governing bodies as to the virtues of the prong collar, were not even read, least of all considered.

Not at all surprising, to say the least. But nonetheless frustrating to think that welfare org's such as RSPCA have the power to influence govt's concerning matters in which they have little knowledge or experience.

[Steve K9Pro]

E:

Because, through pairing, it is possible for a dog to be conditioned to perceive the sound of the chain "zinging" as if it had received the correction itself.

K9: pairing or chaining in events to your training can sometimes be non productive.

For example:

With my (adopted at 7yo) girl (who, I might add, is one of the most sensitive dogs I've ever had to work with, and who's behaviour is sometimes inhibited merely because she is concerned about making mistakes), the sound of the chain is an effective correction - anything more intense provokes generalised inhibition.

K9: if this dog moves causing the check chain to move, what does she think she is being corrected for?

Also, when you chain a warning into your correction, what happens when the dog gets off leash & you have no correction or warning of. What makes dogs work off leash when trained with check chain corrections is their desire to avoid an aversive.

If they have one step, a warning step available to them prior to a correction, they will often require this warning to get them to do something, so it isnt seen as an aversive to be avoided, rather a warning you "mean it" this time.

IE: the next time you give an offleash command, the dog doesnt hear the zing & feels that no correction is possible.

Like I said though, Im talking from my corner of the world where I require 100% reliability 100% of the time, mistakes arent an option.

[Erny]

What I'm trying to say, K9, is that through her initial training, an automatic, although unintentional pairing of the "zing" and the "correction" occurred. I am also trying to communicate (to you) that my girl does not require, in the majority of circumstances, to have the correction "followed through" .... the sound of the "zing" is sufficient and serves, for her, as a correction.

There is a difference between the chain gently moving along the links in general movement and the actual "zing" preceding a correction.

My girl is very obedient when we are out - in all facets, including (but not limited to) recalls, sits, stands, drops, drops on the move, drops at a distance, hand signal command compliance, stand stays and drops out of sight and when we are out she is mostly off-leash (where allowed). She is command compliant and seeks to please and loves it when she's "got it right". The only thing we're not real flash at is heeling. She's better on lead than off, and it's not really "tight". But I am satisfied with the progress she's made since I adopted her (at which time she was human as well as dog aggressive and knew only the very basic of obedience command skill), so, with her, I don't push for better in the heel - I'm satisfied.

If I apply a correction that far exceeds what she requires, I provoke inhibition. Inhibition does not occur when I use the "zing" of the chain to communicate against an unwanted behaviour.

She's also passed at a basic level "scent detection" test, although it took us alot of work, due to her having a long bout of illness, as well as not possessing the most ideal temperament pre-requisits for the job! She's now going on 12 years old.

Perhaps you haven't come across a dog like mine.

And this is where I'm endeavouring to emphasise the point that there are many different ways to train and that there are numbers of different styles of equipment available (well, maybe now not in Victoria!) and that each style has a valuable place ...... depending on the dog and the circumstances.

[MonElite]

There is a difference between the chain gently moving along the links in general movement and the actual "zing" preceding a correction.

There might be some difference in YOUR case as you have a 12 yo dog that is obviously not quick most of the time.

I assure you that a young strong dog can do a quicker bigger "zing" of a chain than I will ever be able to do.

[Erny]

There might be some difference in YOUR case as you have a 12 yo dog that is obviously not quick most of the time.

I assure you that a young strong dog can do a quicker bigger "zing" of a chain than I will ever be able to do.

No, I assure you I have been able to "talk" to other dogs using the "zing" as well. Not all, mind you, and not in every application ... and timing needs to be absolutely spot on. I reiterate again that certain things can work for certain individuals in certain circumstances.

I made reference to my own girl as an example of how dogs can be "individuals" (the point of reference intended was her high sensitivity, something I don't think her previous/original owners understood which I think is, in part, why she has had behavioural issues.) And she wasn't always 12 years old.

In addition, it was not MY intention to centre my comments around MY own girl, but felt it was a good and perhaps clearer example of what I have been endeavouring to communicate. (ie different dogs/different methods/different equipment - and the possible uses of the equipment).

[Guest Tess32]

Erny - Do you have trouble teaching your girl basic things?

My girl is also afraid to make a mistake and is very sensitive and at this point, I can't even get her to "sit".

Nat

[Steve K9Pro]

E:

There is a difference between the chain gently moving along the links in general movement and the actual "zing" preceding a correction.

K9: I know it sounds different to you & I, sometimes its easy for the dog to make a mistake though.

Here's what I mean, light a match & heat up a spoon with it, have someone watch you.

Then quickly touch their arm with another spoon, they will jump, even though they werent burned.

E:

If I apply a correction that far exceeds what she requires, I provoke inhibition.

K9: applying a correction that is excessive will extinguish the drive of any dog.

E:

Perhaps you haven't come across a dog like mine.

K9: perhaps, but I doubt it.

[Erny]

Erny - Do you have trouble teaching your girl basic things?

Not really. In fact, my biggest problem at the moment is that my dog is reluctant to release from a command. I never had a problem with this until an incident at the park. It's a long story involving a HUGE black lab who came rushing at my dog. To protect my girl (and all the hard work I've put into getting her to be ok around unfamiliar dogs) I stood in and took control of the lab. Whilst a bunch of kids (who the dog had followed to the park) were organising something to make into a makeshift lead, I was holding the lab in a drop (seemed to be the only way I could contain him). If he struggled to resist, I used my voice to growl at him.

When finally that was all under control and the kids in the park took (dragged) the lab away, I turned around to see my own girl standing near my friend (with whom I was walking), about 20 metres away ..... quaking.

What I hadn't realised at the time was the effect of my growling at the lab. I can only presume my girl was confused and assumed I had been growling at her, but didn't understand what she might have been doing wrong.

After that, her inhibitive behaviour was obvious for about 48 hours. During that time I did tricks with her, rather than obedience, always rewarding the trick, and releasing after each exercise. With this, her confidence in herself appeared to return and is now ok ..... except for the releases. I can tell her to (eg) sit, and then "sing" her release command, but it often takes me some effort to convince her that she is actually allowed to release. Coupled with her release command are some really tasty rewards and plenty of praise. (She does not like to play with toys etc.) As I've mentioned in earlier posts in this thread, it's as if she's worried about making mistakes .... . In fact, I'm presently spending time coupling her release command with a treat (without having put her in a command) ....

Anyway, that's enough of me and mine .....

What is it that your dog does/doesn't do when you ask her to "sit"?

Edited June 10, 2005 by Erny

[Erny]

Sorry - just realised my "conversation" with Tess is a bit of a hi-jack to this thread. Perhaps we should start a new thread, Tess?

[Erny]

E:

If I apply a correction that far exceeds what she requires, I provoke inhibition.

K9: applying a correction that is excessive will extinguish the drive of any dog.

Thanks, K9, for your input. I feel the problem here is that you are very selective about picking pieces of quotation from a sentence and thereby removing the very essence of the context for which they were written. This in itself raises responses for which I feel compelled to justify, resulting in the original meaning/point becoming convoluted.

In respect to your above quoted statement, however, your response is exactly my point - thank you.

[MonElite]

No, I assure you I have been able to "talk" to other dogs using the "zing" as well. Not all, mind you, and not in every application ... and timing needs to be absolutely spot on. I reiterate again that certain things can work for certain individuals in certain circumstances.

I made my comment following K9s about what differenc will the zing be to a dog that doest it to itself?

it will be the same if the dog is very energetic and lounges forward in excitement in comparison to what you would do with your hand performing a correction.

Thats all. You compared the correction zing to a slow motion of links when dog moves. Well, MY dog doesnt move slow. Self inflicted zing would be the same as my correction hence confusion for the dog - in my case. I imagine that there are plenty of dogs that are like mine, he might be special to me, but is not so special when others compare him to other dogs.

[MonElite]

Coming back to the original discussion we started - what is wrong with the prong collar than?

Do you say that it provides corrections that exceed what is reguired?

Wouldnt it be in the user not the tool, just like we established with the check chain not long ago and all agreed to the same?

[Erny]

K9: if this dog moves causing the check chain to move, what does she think she is being corrected for?

myszka:  You compared the correction zing to a slow motion of links when dog moves.

I don't believe I did (unless I misunderstood what K9 was driving at - I presumed he was the one endeavouring to make the comparison to which you refer, myszka - refer top quote). My response was to negate K9's proposed comparison.

myszka:  Self inflicted zing would be the same as my correction hence confusion for the dog - in my case.

I'm not sure what you mean, myszka ... Using a "self-correction" exercise and hypothesising an example such as going to suddenly break a sit and pull out on the leash:

In my girl's case the "zing" may act as a correction in itself and she is thus self-corrected, often before she proceeds with her action to reach the physical self correction stage. In your case, and in that circumstance, your dog might not recognise the "zing" as a punisher and therefore proceeds to the "physical" correction stage. Provided our dogs are trained to understand sit (until released) I don't see where the confusion, in either dogs' minds, is. ??

[Erny]

Coming back to the original discussion we started - what is wrong with the prong collar than?

Do you say that it provides corrections that exceed what is reguired?

Wouldnt it be in the user not the tool, just like we established with the check chain not long ago and all agreed to the same?

Myszka - I think if you read all my posts you'll recognise that I never said there was anything wrong with the prong collar. In fact, you'll see that I support it. The discussion pertaining to the check chain arose as a result of one of the posters commenting he/she didn't like them, and my responding by saying they had their place and uses.

You'll also see that a number of us (myself included) have concurred that any tool in the wrong hands can be bad.

Edited June 10, 2005 by Erny