Prong Collars

[Guest trainer47]

But about Check Chains - these tools are used, I understand, by more than 90% of all Service Dog Trainers throughout the World and has been around for a heck of a long time.  I doubt that this would be the case if not for a great percentage of proven successes time over time over time. 

I have to say that correction collars are my tool of choice. They are VERY effective if used properly. I don't chose to use prong collars unless I have a client that cannot get control from a pulling dog by use of a training collar (correction collar).But, we discourage them in class. And what we teach people to listen for is that "zing". Then they no they are correcting properly.

[Erny]

I have also seen alot of assistance dogs on head halters

Hey Mel ... for your info, I contacted Assistance Dogs for Independence. They train on flat collars (when the dogs are puppies) and then go to a Check Chain.....

[KitKat]

I've seen handlers using prong collars on their service dogs and only once have i thought the collar should have been on the handler...but perhaps he was just having a bad day :rolleyes:

I was tempted to ask where they got them from as they were a touch different to the one i have but that could just be because they came form a different manufacturer etc.

[mrose_s]

whats a prong collar, same as a choke chain?

[Staff'n'Toller]

Sorry Erny missed your last post....thanks for the info

When I said I had seen dogs, I meant in the US, wearing head halters.

I know Guide Dogs also use correction chains. Although that interests me as a few ppl are having success with the senseation or easy walker harness over here in Oz, and is similar to the Guide Dog harnesses....I guess the correction chain is just for added safety.

However it's interesting to know what independance are using.

Mel.

Edited June 8, 2005 by StaffordsRule

[Erny]

whats a prong collar, same as a choke chain?

No, a Prong Collar (aka Power Chain) is a collar made up of a series of interlocking blunt, metal prongs connected by a loop of small link chain. As mentioned, each link has two metal prongs (bent and rounded) that, at rest, sit firmly on the dog's neck. This collar, when tightened, evenly applies pressure around the dog's neck - the prongs 'squeeze' (or 'pinches') the skin on the dog's neck.

If you want to read up on the principals of how a prong collar works, one (of many) web-sites you can visit is

Training with the Prong Collar by Suzanne Clothier

Some pictures of prong collars (as well as text) can be found at

Prong Collars

[Steve K9Pro]

Erny:

But about Check Chains - these tools are used, I understand, by more than 90% of all Service Dog Trainers throughout the World and has been around for a heck of a long time. I doubt that this would be the case if not for a great percentage of proven successes time over time over time.

K9: These days, not many service dog trainers use check chains, they have gon ethe way of the e collar & or prong.

Success can be measured in different terms too, I remember doing a demo for a dog unit that told me they had the best dogs, after a run through with my dog, they said they had a long way to go.

Erny:

The other thing I like about Check Chains is that, once a dog has paired the two together, the simple sound of the "zip" as the ring 'sings' along the chain can in itself become, to the dog, the correction. So, in some cases and for some of the times, it is only necessary to create the "zip" sound and to the dog the correction is applied.

K9: when Im looking for a high level of reliability from a dog, I find training wirth a warning (chain slip) works against you, it warns the dog that there "might" be a correction, sometimes.

In avoidance training, the can only truly learn to avoid the correction if it occurs every time until the can actually avoid it.

SR:

Also I have heard some remarks about the way some service pups should be trained here in Melbourne and to be honest it's quite behind the times

K9: I agree with you here, I find the reason is that they stick to a tried & proven method rather than branch out, like the dog unit I spoke of, until they see a better dog trained differently, they dont branch out.

Many sport trainers are the same, sticking with old, partially outdated methods.

[MonElite]

K9: I agree with you here, I find the reason is that they stick to a tried & proven method rather than branch out, like the dog unit I spoke of, until they see a better dog trained differently, they dont branch out.

Many sport trainers are the same, sticking with old, partially outdated methods.

Perhaps some follow the rule if it isnt broken why fix it?

I preffer to follow the rule - if you are not progressing you are actually going backwards.

[Lablover]

K9: I agree with you here, I find the reason is that they stick to a tried & proven method rather than branch out, like the dog unit I spoke of, until they see a better dog trained differently, they dont branch out.

Many sport trainers are the same, sticking with old, partially outdated methods.

Speaking as an amateur retriever trainer, AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH!!!!

Just when I think I am finally getting my training program right, a new fangled idea pops into my head. It irritates me no end, as the whole reason I travel overseas, organise seminars is so my dogs are not confused (like me!!!).

[wagalot]

sorry i don't like them, and yes i have seen and tryed them.

I am a dog trainer and have been for over 10 years, i have and always will use positive reward based training, i do use check chains, and yes if thay are used the right way thay are fine.

but if you jurk your poor dog about then its going to do some damage

to me PICHING, PULLING AND JURKING :scaredyour poor dog about is not positve, happy training.

[Staranais]

Hey Wagalot,

Not trying to start a fight - you're allowed not to like them!

But I was wondering what you see as the difference between a choke and a prong? They're both adversive "punishment based" collars (and in fact when I put both types on my leg and gave them a really good tug I personally thought the choke hurt more than the prong.)

So I don't understand why you think one fits into a positive training regime and the other doesn't. Can you explain? Ta!

[MonElite]

i do use check chains, and yes if thay are used the right way thay are fine.

Wouldnt this apply to any type of collar

[Kavik]

I think pinch collars are great if you have a dog that requires one.

I don't have the choice to use them in my chosen sports. Competition obedience clubs will mostly allow check chains (although at some clubs, even these are frowned upon), I think if you showed up with a pinch collar you would get told off quickly enough, certainly would not be allowed to train in it.

In agility you are not allowed check chains, if you bring a pinch they would probably put the RSPCA on you

[MonElite]

You are very right Kavik, I was almost thrown out from ob. club for having a prong on my dog. Was told that this is just like a barb wire and I am barbaric....

They never say buuu when people strungle their dogs with chains.......

Double standard????

[Erny]

K9:

Many sport trainers are the same, sticking with old, partially outdated methods.

If a method works well and the most efficiently (for human and dog), I don't see a problem with "sticking with old, partially outdated methods" (your terms, not mine).

K9:

These days, not many service dog trainers use check chains, they have gon ethe way of the e collar & or prong.

Checking up on this comment .... Have only checked one place (minority) - Assistance Dogs for Independance. As mentioned in earlier post, they use flat collars on pups and then go to the Check Chain. Plan to research further asa I get a chance.

K9:

In avoidance training, the can only truly learn to avoid the correction if it occurs every time until the can actually avoid it.

And an effective correction is one that changes the dog's behaviour. So, it depends on the dog you're working with, IMO. For a very sensitive dog (as mine is), the "zip" sound often effects her as would a stronger correction on a different dog, depending, of course, on the environment and the situation.

I can also more easily work a chain to 'discourage' a behaviour (ie perhaps not effectively changing the dog's behaviour, but preventing it from perceiving that the behaviour is acceptable) with reduced, if any, damage to the encouragement of a behaviour I am teaching it simultaneously. (Although sometimes I sacrifice pushing the point on an unwanted behaviour, for the sake of a behaviour I wish to encourage, until the wanted behaviour becomes stronger and I can actively work on weakening the unwanted behaviour - it just depends on what the behaviours are and at what point the training is at.) Again, whether this serves to best achieve the results I seek depends on the dog, the environment and the situation.

The above is only in response to the selected pieces of my posts you have chosen to highlight. I don't wish to enter a debate on which piece of equipment is better than the other, simply because I do not see one as better than the other. I thought my earlier posts expressed that I see the value of both pieces of equipment and regard the same as tools for our tool box, to be used in the most suited of situations and the most suited of dogs, but I apologise if my choice of wording has not transmitted clearly.

Edited June 9, 2005 by Erny

[Anna H]

You are very right Kavik, I was almost thrown out from ob. club for having a prong on my dog. Was told that this is just like a barb wire and I am barbaric....

They never say buuu when people strungle their dogs with chains.......

Double standard????

Me thinks so! I even tried pleading with my club to be allowed to have the prong on inside out (prongs facing outwards) so the collar was no different to the limited slip collars that the club sold and endorsed.. witht he exception that the prong is metal and the club ones are nylon.

They pretty much told me to either get it off or leave the club.

But my OB club has banned check chains as well. So now the club is like a technicolour arena of head halters with dogs constantly stopping to paw their faces

I've since taken up training my dog at home, with much greater success.

[Ciara]

wagalot Posted on 9th Jun 2005 - 04:34 PM

sorry i don't like them, and yes i have seen and tryed them.

I am a dog trainer and have been for over 10 years, i have and always will use positive reward based training, i do use check chains, and yes if thay are used the right way thay are fine.

but if you jurk your poor dog about then its going to do some damage

to me PICHING, PULLING AND JURKING :scaredyour poor dog about is not positve, happy training

Prong collars can't do any damage if used correctly.

They're easier to use than a check chain too. (IMHO)

I wouldn't have put one on my eleven year old dog if I thought it was going to hurt him.

He stopped his occasional pulling, there was no jerking involved, and the slight pinch that he got from the collar only served to decrease his drive and help him to relax.

Result - one happier dog, and one much happier owner!

[Steve K9Pro]

LL:

Speaking as an amateur retriever trainer, AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH!!!!

K9: oh hardly.....

Wagalot:

sorry i don't like them, and yes i have seen and tryed them.

I am a dog trainer and have been for over 10 years, i have and always will use positive reward based training, i do use check chains, and yes if thay are used the right way thay are fine.

K9: this confuses me, why would you think that a prong collar removes the positive reward base of training? They are used on the same principle as a check chain. I have to wonder if you have used one?

Erny:

If a method works well and the most efficiently (for human and dog), I don't see a problem with "sticking with old, partially outdated methods" (your terms, not mine).

K9: What I was trying to get at was, you get results with a method you stick to it as you may be nervous of trying something new that may not work. You deem your success on your own results, rather than compare those to others who may show you the bar is way higher.

E:

Checking up on this comment .... Have only checked one place (minority) - Assistance Dogs for Independance. As mentioned in earlier post, they use flat collars on pups and then go to the Check Chain. Plan to research further asa I get a chance.

K9: this is a two fold answer, 1. when I say service dog I was referring to my own corner of the world, law enforcement service dogs. 2. many people use the e collar & dont say so.

Its always nice to say "I use a flat collar & my skills", but rarely is that the case.

E:

And an effective correction is one that changes the dog's behaviour. So, it depends on the dog you're working with, IMO. For a very sensitive dog (as mine is), the "zip" sound often effects her as would a stronger correction on a different dog, depending, of course, on the environment and the situation.

K9: I has nothing to do with the intensity of the correction, its got to do with the consistency of it.

If your dog see's the zip of the chain as an effective correction, then thats fine, if it see's it as a warning of things to come, I dont train that way.

I actually do think that some equipment is better than the other...

[Erny]

K9:  "many people use the e collar & dont say so"

I expect because of 'bad press' and the misconception of its use and effect by the common public. I use the e-collar when appropriate, and, only because it is appropriate, good results are achieved.

K9: "It has nothing to do with the intensity of the correction, its got to do with the consistency of it."

I disagree - if the intensity is not at a level that is aversive to the dog, then the correction is meaningless or ignored by the dog. Of course consistency (edited to add "and timing") is imperative, given that dogs learn from patterns.

K9:  "If your dog see's the zip of the chain as an effective correction, then thats fine, if it see's it as a warning of things to come, I dont train that way."

Nor do I.

K9: "What I was trying to get at was, you get results with a method you stick to it as you may be nervous of trying something new that may not work."

Nervous? No. Wisely cautious? Yes. Hence I have experience (at varying levels) in the use of many pieces of equipment, from headcollar, checkchain, prong collar, to e-collar ... all used on different dogs for different reasons.

K9:  "You deem your success on your own results, rather than compare those to others who may show you the bar is way higher."

No, I don't. I'm always searching for overall improvement.

K9:  "I actually do think that some equipment is better than the other..."

Why? Because generally one piece of equipment achieves the better result with most dogs? Yes, we can have our "favourites" .... but occassionally there's that 'other dog' that is going to respond best (even at a certain time of teaching/training and/or to get through a certain behaviour issue) to another piece of equipment. That's why my mind is always open ....

Edited June 10, 2005 by Erny

[wagalot]

if you all think they are so good please explain why they are banned...

and don't tell me its just cause they look nasty...

Some of you have asked why i use check chains.

Well i don't use them to pull the dog around i use food or toys to get the dogs attendion and praise when they stop pulling i find you only need to give the sightest tuck on the lead and the dog will respond, this is based on beginner dogs.

if people find that these prong collors work for them, because there dogs are series pullers, thats great go ahead and use them. but for young dogs that are just learning the art of obedience i find they are unnessary.

another reason for check chains or what i use the most nylon soft correction collor, is perly so dogs don't slip ther collor off and get away from me, when your out walking other peoples dogs you have to be very carefull that nothing happens to them and walking dogs on normal collors can be scary if they get off.