Staranais Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Hello again helpful people! I've seen "training in drive" mentioned in several old posts - paticually posts involving K9force and his students. Can someone explain what this means, exactly, and what is good about it? From reading the posts, I get the idea that it's rewarding the dog by giving him something to chase instead of something to eat. But I'm sure there must be something more to it than that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 K9: you can look here Its teaching the dog how to complete excercises & achieve drive satisfaction, very powerful tool when you have a high prey drive dog that will comply with your commands to achieve its own satisfaction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted June 1, 2005 Author Share Posted June 1, 2005 Hey, that was quick! I'm amazed at the service round here! :D Seriously though, thanks Steve. So basically, you mean teasing the dog with a favourite toy, and then teaching him that he has to show self-control in order to actually get the toy? So if I work my Staffy up over his tennis ball, but only actually give it to him after he sits nicely, that's training in drive? How is that better than training with food? (Just clicked - you're the same Steve that I brought a prong collar off last week! Shipped it all the way to NZ for us too, thanks. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knobbles Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Well, if your staffy's in play drive and is focused on getting the ball, you are going to satisfy his 'play drive' by giving him the ball... If he was sitting in front of his food bowl waiting for your command, he's not exactly going to be happy with getting a tennis ball, right? (He'd be in food drive then) Is this right Steve? Just thought I'd test my knowledge after your seminar on the weekend! Is it fair to say Steve that keeping your dogs happy by being able to satisfy their natural drives you will have a more balanced/ happy dog because you are not depriving them of it..& a dog that will listen to your commands more because you give him what he needs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted June 1, 2005 Author Share Posted June 1, 2005 OK... thought I had it, but now I realise I was just confused. I understand that if the dog wants the ball and I give him a food reward instead (or vice versa), then that's not training in drive. So what if my dog's just lying round, and I ask him to do something (say, I want him to go find my partner). He's not really in any kind of drive at the moment. If I was training in drive, do I have to PUT him into prey drive before asking him to do the command, so that I can satisfy the drive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Amhailte - you can spend couple of days reading posts that Steve has wrote here over the years (BTW some make very entertaining reading) and there are many examples of this. Try from his oldest posts, than go back to page about 49-50 and there is a perfect explanation in there. Not that I actually know all his posts of by heart, just happend to read it this morning. But you did have it more or less right. How is this better than food, what are you going to offer your dog when its not hungry as a motivator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 I understand that if the dog wants the ball and I give him a food reward instead (or vice versa), then that's not training in drive. Giving dog food rewards means that you work in food drive. Steves training is more about satysfying pray drive. Perhaps this is where you are getting confused. As to getting a dog to do something when its doing nothing - yes you need to initialise a drive first, and it can be done very quickly, one word command, or just the dogs name could initialise it - depending on the motivator and training. My most recent command to raise the drive is "where is the bunny?" And you can read a bit about this in this subject http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?showtopic=28457 Now I will put my "expert" advice aside and wait for K9 to return to strip my posts to bits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted June 1, 2005 Author Share Posted June 1, 2005 Thanks Myska! I will go back and read the posts you mentioned, and come back with more informed questions tommorrow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Steve, K9 force, opened my eyes to the use of prey drive (and their box of tricks, LOL). Even my young pups, who have just turned 6 months of age, who I like to think are retrieving machines, maintain focus for longer periods of time with a better attitude, which I humbly thought was already good. My only worry now is, that they receive little negative re enforcement, which will be required when they are older and their training becomes more complex. Out of order retrieves etc. Balance, will play a significant part I am sure, as it does with training generally. Timing of negative/positive re enforcement is also vital, plus knowing when a dog has been trained sufficiently to expect good responses. Dogs can often thrive on pressure also, a different subject, that Steve may hopefully reply to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted June 1, 2005 Author Share Posted June 1, 2005 OK, so this is what I've got so far... 1) Building drive in a dog means getting them hyped up so they want a tug toy or a game. 2) Training in drive means the dog learns he has to comply with your commands in order to get the tug toy or game. 3) If you have to correct the dog for noncompliance with a known command, you immediately get him hyped up again ("back into drive"). Is that kind of right? I think I must still be missing something, since this still just seems like regular teaching, only using a game/toy as a reward instead of food/praise. And two specific questions, for anyone in the know... Myska has said that training in drive is better than using food as a motivator, since you don't always have food with you. I must be missing something, since I don't always have a tug toy on me either to get the dog into drive - how is that different? And question number two - why does the dog get no corrections while proofing? He knows the command, right, so why is he not corrected if he doesn't obey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgm Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Myska has said that training in drive is better than using food as a motivator, since you don't always have food with you. I must be missing something, since I don't always have a tug toy on me either to get the dog into drive - how is that different? The prey item is faded, same as food - I presume. It isn't different as far as I know - just that some dogs are more prey driven than food driven. And question number two - why does the dog get no corrections while proofing? He knows the command, right, so why is he not corrected if he doesn't obey? No reason why corrections cannot be used in proofing - K9 certainly uses corrections in the proofing stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted June 1, 2005 Author Share Posted June 1, 2005 Hi pgm, I just read some old posts where k9 said he used teaching, training and proofing stages. He said he didn't correct in the teaching or proofing stage, only in the training stage. That was what confused me - I can't see why he wouldn't, but then again perhaps my definition of proofing is different to how he uses the term? (I can dig out the post tonight if you like, but am off on search right now). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Read K9's posts again. There are 3 stages in training - learning, corretcion and proofing. There is no need to use corrections in learning stage - what are you going to correct if the dog doesn even know what to do? Dog needs to understand the command first before you can correct. oh and while I type I can see that the devil himself has appeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 (edited) A: Hey, that was quick! I'm amazed at the service round here!  Seriously though, thanks Steve. K9: the bill is in the mail... A: So basically, you mean teasing the dog with a favourite toy, and then teaching him that he has to show self-control in order to actually get the toy?So if I work my Staffy up over his tennis ball, but only actually give it to him after he sits nicely, that's training in drive? How is that better than training with food? K9: Its only better than training with food if your dog has a stronger prey drive than food drive. Its about training the dog within its temperament rather than trying to apply a one size fits all training method. Another way to look it it is that when your dog runs off after a cat, bird etc, he wont be in food drive. At this stage it would be helpful to have your dog obedient whilst in prey drive. A: Just clicked - you're the same Steve that I brought a prong collar off last week! Shipped it all the way to NZ for us too, thanks K9: yep, that would be me. K: Is it fair to say Steve that keeping your dogs happy by being able to satisfy their natural drives you will have a more balanced/ happy dog because you are not depriving them of it..& a dog that will listen to your commands more because you give him what he needs? K9: yes this is correct but its also important to know that your working with the dog rather than working against his genetic drives. A: I understand that if the dog wants the ball and I give him a food reward instead (or vice versa), then that's not training in drive. K9: its confusing the dog, when you work your dog up with a ball, your building prey or play drive drive, you should reward with the ball to satisfy prey drive. I also prefer prey drive as it requires more focus & control the play drive. A: So what if my dog's just lying round, and I ask him to do something (say, I want him to go find my partner). He's not really in any kind of drive at the moment. If I was training in drive, do I have to PUT him into prey drive before asking him to do the command, so that I can satisfy the drive? K9: yes, but that can be done with a single word. LL: Dogs can often thrive on pressure also, a different subject, that Steve may hopefully reply to. K9: yes they can when they are conditioned to deal with this pressure & achieve success in the end. A good patrol dog will enjoy fighting a man even when the man is giving a hard fight to the dog, the dog values the win higher against a man who will fight him hard, even though there is more pressure to deal with & possibly pain envloved. Conditioning is the key to pressure. A: 1) Building drive in a dog means getting them hyped up so they want a tug toy or a game. K9: this is one of the components, which is called prey drive development. This is the learning stage of the excercise. In the end, the dog can go into prey drive, although a controlled version of, on a command. A: 2) Training in drive means the dog learns he has to comply with your commands in order to get the tug toy or game. K9: yes, really, it means that the you show the dog how to get drive satisfaction with a ball/toy etc. Then the dog knows that you are part of his satisfaction, & it will take a certain action from him to get this satisfaction. Focus & self control will also be required. A: 3) If you have to correct the dog for noncompliance with a known command, you immediately get him hyped up again ("back into drive"). K9: there is much to this work, adding corrections deminsih drive, so no I wouldnt add a correction, the dog would not get the prey item. A: Myska has said that training in drive is better than using food as a motivator, since you don't always have food with you. I must be missing something, since I don't always have a tug toy on me either to get the dog into drive - how is that different? K9: your talking about using both food & a tug as a primary motivator, in the learning phase thats ok but IMO, motivators must be faded out & the drive triggered by a command. Then items are not required. A: And question number two - why does the dog get no corrections while proofing? He knows the command, right, so why is he not corrected if he doesn't obey? K9: when you have moved to the proofing stage, this should mean the dog is trained to your desired level, he should always obey, or he is still in training. This drive theory & three phase philosophy is explained over about 2 hours in just about all my seminars, as diagrams & demos help get it straight in your mind. PGM: No reason why corrections cannot be used in proofing - K9 certainly uses corrections in the proofing stage. M: Read K9's posts again.There are 3 stages in training - learning, corretcion and proofing. There is no need to use corrections in learning stage - what are you going to correct if the dog doesn even know what to do? Dog needs to understand the command first before you can correct. K:9: Myszka is correct, lets use the terms teach train & proof. Teaching is teaching the mechanics of the excercise, how the dog needs to work, no corrections. Training is practicing or training the known moves & the dog will go through the correction phase in this section, Once the dog is working at a level at which the handler is happy, the transition begins out of training & into proofing, proofing contains no corrections as the dog has passed the point in which it needs them. M: oh and while I type I can see that the devil himself has appeared. K9: lol... A: I just read some old posts where k9 said he used teaching, training and proofing stages. He said he didn't correct in the teaching or proofing stage, only in the training stage. That was what confused me - I can't see why he wouldn't, but then again perhaps my definition of proofing is different to how he uses the term? K9: when the dog is being taught something, corrections arent fair as the dog doesnt fully understand what he is supposed to do. Proofing means your dog is trained, if thats the case, corrections arent required, if they still are required, its not trained. Edited June 2, 2005 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Great topic guys This is what I'm hoping to learn all about in that seminar! Can't wait for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 K: This is what I'm hoping to learn all about in that seminar! K9: bring your note pad & questions with you, make sure you ask all the questions you need & you will gain a good knowledge of training in drive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Can't wait for it! buy yourself a tape measure and every night cut of 1cm of the tape starting form the highest number When you get to less than 5cm you will know it almost time ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 (edited) K9: bring your note pad or better a video camera But the rights to the info on the video are K9 copyright protected. Edited June 2, 2005 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 (edited) I get it, I get it! Thanks! A few more pesky questions, then I'll leave you all alone... About putting a dog into drive... K9: your talking about using both food & a tug as a primary motivator, in the learning phase thats ok but IMO, motivators must be faded out & the drive triggered by a command. Then items are not required. So, if I say "ready" to my dog each time before getting him hyped up with the toy, then eventually I can say "ready" and he'll know it's time to work? Is that kind of what you mean Steve? How long does that take, before he no longer needs the toy to go into drive? K9: Its only better than training with food if your dog has a stronger prey drive than food drive. Its about training the dog within its temperament rather than trying to apply a one size fits all training method. And one more dumb question coming up. My dog is a very game bull terrier - compared to the other pet dogs I've known he seems to have moderate food drive, high prey drive and a SUPER high drive to fight other male dogs (don't know what you call that?). So I'd be best to train him in prey drive? Or is there some way to train him by using his "dog-dog fight" drive? I don't want to give him the reward of fighting other dogs obviously, but this seems to be what motivates him the most. PS - any plans for a tour of NZ Steve? Edited June 2, 2005 by Amhailte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 K9: Its only better than training with food if your dog has a stronger prey drive than food drive. Its about training the dog within its temperament rather than trying to apply a one size fits all training method.K9: yes this is correct but its also important to know that your working with the dog rather than working against his genetic drives. So what happens when your dogs genetic drives do not fall into any of these categories, such as in a herding dog? I'm sure you can teach food/play/prey but genetically there is a much stronger drive. Is there a name for it? Do you believe you can harness this drive to train everyday things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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