Training Advise

[pgm]

If you go to www.lgd.org click on the library link and look under 'behaviour' you will find the article by Janice entitled "Prong collars and some information about their use" which refers to the study. She however, does not reference it. (edited to state that she does not directly reference it to a primary source - she does refer to the anne marie silverton seminar which is where she sources the information)

Nobody references the study - it doesn't exist. Anne Marie Silverton allegedly referred to the study in an obsure seminar in the 90's. Nobody has got any further than that. I want the name of the author and when and where it was published so that I can actually read it. Until then the study is mere conjecture.

[Sonny]

It's great that everyone wants to add something about "prong collars" but perhaps that should be another thread???

[MonElite]

I mean he had it on today when I took him to run an errand through the city at lunchtime. Not one correction, not even a tug on the lead. Oh - but he wasn't on lead - never left my side.

Why do you put a check chain on than? Would flat leather collar suffice?

[Vickie]

He is an Australian Bulldog nearly 6 months old (my ticker isn't working properly).

As I said I'm not expecting him to be great at things it is just to keep him simulated.

I live in Karratha so we only have one dog-training group here, I think I'll talk to them on Tuesday after class and see what they say.

He may surprise you Sonny. There was an Aussie Bulldog over here a few years ago. She was an awesome agility dog, very focussed and had a really great relationship with her owner. She was pretty fast and absolutely loooved agility.

Let us know what the instructors at the club say...and have FUN!

Vickie

[Muttlover]

Just answering a couple of questions a bit late.

I mainly read training books and a couple of dog magazine articles. I also spoke to some vets and trainers. Most of the books/articles said the injuries from the chains occurred when they were on upside down, when the dog was allowed to pull constantly on a chain, when they were left on unsupervised, or in dog breeds with soft trachias. before you ask I don't know which breeds these are but I found out JRs were fine before I used one.

He didn't seem stressed, sore, unhappy or shy with the chain. In fact, he has always really enjoyed Sunday mornings. His breathing sounds free and normal and he hasn't started snoring. He always got a clean bill of health on his regular vet check ups. I haven't seen inside his throat, but he always seemed and seems health and happy.

When I first started walking my pup I tried to walk my two dogs together n one of those split leads. This wa a disaster as my older dog was too strong for my pup and would pull her along without even realising she wasn't keeping up or had stopped. I noticed that each time the lead tightened on her flat collar she would panic, so I am pretty sure she would panic on a collar that goes tight when pulled. I haven't used the split lead since. By lead tug I mean the 'pop and release' check chain method.

[Denis Carthy]

Muttlover

I did some research, and kept a close eye on my dogs health in the early stages.

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Muttlover

My obedience club uses them with very few reports of injury (I haven't heard any to date, but that is not to say there hasn't been any), and I trust them.

Denis

It's already been pointed out by K9, you cannot see internal injuries Muttlover,

PGM

K9, can I ask which research you are referring to?

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PGM

The study does not exist. It is the Loch Ness monster of the internet. Many reported sightings no actual sightings.

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PGM

To save you time I can report that I have spent many hours searching the internet for such a citation and found nothing except quite a few other people asking the same question.

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PGM

Nobody references the study - it doesn't exist. Anne Marie Silverton allegedly referred to the study in an obscure seminar in the 90's.

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PGM

Even if this study did exist (it doesn't) it says nothing about how these collars were used, let alone whether they were use correctly.

Denis Carthy

Those studies did take place, in the early 1980’s a very brief paper came to many groups working their dogs, independent of UK-KC sports, and who mainly had contacts and had done some training etc in Germany and usually who had some contacts with an ex military dog handler who had done service in Germany.

It was a very brief paper translated and giving the basic facts and statistics on the one hundred dogs. I and no one else really took any notice of which Uni it was carried, out by as that was irrelevant to the facts. Even it was written into the paper, and I do not remember any name, no one would have took much notice of an non pronounceable German name anyway, let alone remember it 20 years on.

I spoke to Anne Marie Silverton by phone about 3 years to try to get the name of whatever Uni was involved but she could not remember, she saw it in a German magazine and she did give it a seminar many times.

I don’t know why you are under the implied impression that all studies are referenced and readily accessible, very few studies which are done ever see far beyond the research source.

As far as were they used properly-good heavens-these were German studies-the Germans invented prong collars asking if a German pet or working dog owner knows how to use a prong collar is like asking a footballer does he know what a goalpost is, they are up to SchH 1 by the time their 11.

Below is edited from an Anders Hallgren paper-he sent it to me personally-I don’t think it has ever been published but look anyway- There is also a much more recent probe piece of research which amounts to someone wrote to about 20 UK vets with questions etc-it showed in that one area of UK 13 dogs out of 20 had suspect neck problems to do with pulling on the lead, no time to reference it now and it was only a probe questionair anyway.

*****************************

Anders Hallgren

Back problems in dogs 1991.

P1 – P6.

P1.

In 1991 I studied in an attempt to map frequency of back injuries in dogs. The study comprised 400 dogs and a team of chiropractors.

P3.

There seems to be a connection between how the collar is handled and back problems. Pulling and jerking on the leash affect especially the neck and throat.

snip

However, one of the clearest correlation’s in the whole study was between cervical (neck) damages and ‘jerk and pull’. 91% of the dogs who had neck injuries had also been exposed to jerking and pulling on the lead by the owner or had been allowed to pull hard on the leash for long periods of time.

Authors note: – A very low percentage of the dogs that had no cervical injuries had been exposed to jerking or allowed to pull for long periods.

P 4

Dogs of different breeds represented by 9 or more dogs of that breed were listed to see if some breeds were more inclined to back problems. Other dogs were involved.

1. Bernese Mountain dog 2. Mixed breeds 3. Boxer. 4. Cavalier King Charles. 5. Collie 6. Dobermann 7. Flat Coated Retriever 8. Golden Retriever 9. Groenendal 10. Lab Retriever 11. GSD 12. Tervueren.

Back defects as irritation

It’s well known that dogs with different diseases easily develop problem behaviours,

Pain can cause aggression etc.

Reproduction for non commercial purposes permmited to Denis Carthy.

Edited May 27, 2005 by Denis Carthy

[Steve K9Pro]

PGM:

K9, the link you provided sent me to the same mythical study that I seen many times.

K9: As Dennis said, I too did read in a US K9 Journal about this study, it isnt mythical. At first you said it was mythical as you could not locate it on the web, within 5 minutes I gave you links & contacts.

Try contacting the people & ask them to reference it for you, here is another tip, contact Herm Sprenger & ask them....

PGM:

Even if this study did exist (it doesn't) it says nothing about how these collars were used, let alone whether they were use correctly.

K9: the comparison from pinch collars to checks is made using the same operating proceedure on each collar, so if using the same techniques with each collar produces injury with a check chain, that is enough for me.

You also havent commented about my actual experiences....

PGM:

Now please don't get me wrong, I have no objections to prong collars. In fact I believe that they would be a better, safer, more effective tool for the average person than a check chain

K9: safer? I think thats what the mystical study shows?

PGM:

I think they should be freely available to the public,

K9: they are, only banned in Victoria...

PGM:

I am simply questioning the notion that check chains when used correctly cause injury. My dog has not pulled or lunged on the check chain since the second day of training. That was over a year ago. I don't see how the check chain can be harming my dog if he is not recieving any corrections.

K9: well simply it cant, but unlike you, Im not talking about experience with my one dog, Im talking of 1000's of dogs & handlers.

Dog is unruly, the design of a check chain when leash is handled correctly will see the chain on the lwest part of the neck, where it is least effective, it requires more force to apply the same level of correction that a prong or even a correctly placed martingale will apply.

That extra force impacting the throat of the dog can cause scar tissue to form.

PGM:

I mean he had it on today when I took him to run an errand through the city at lunchtime. Not one correction, not even a tug on the lead. Oh - but he wasn't on lead - never left my side.

K9: you may as well have a spiked collar on with sharpened spikes, all your doing is giving me an irrelavant scenario.

You can fit a check chain to any dog & it will recieves no correction if you dont fit a leash?

[dlmckay]

It's great that everyone wants to add something about "prong collars" but perhaps that should be another thread???

Well exactly - take the prong/check/electric collar discussion/argument to another thread. This poor person here just wants to know some training tips for agilty and flyball!

Sonny! One very good tip for teaching agility is LEFT and RIGHT - if Sonny's very into the tennis balls then hurl it left and call LEFT - work on that for a little while and then opposite to teach RIGHT. Invaluable for agility where there are very tight bends! Me, I can't get to grips with left and right, so I call TO ME and AWAY and gesture with my arms! Tui's cottoned on though!

For flyball, you will need to get Sonny to give the ball up to you willingly, so don't fall into the trap of letting him keep it and chewing it into oblivion! Take it off him and throw another! He'll learn that fast recall back to you with a tennis ball means he gets to play again with another one and that's exactly what you want for flyball.

Ditto about the low impact work (jumps, etc), but there's no reason why you can't play with tunnels or weavewands. Get some bamboo stakes and poke them into the ground at 60cm intervals - you'll need twelve... toss the ball at the end of the wands to encourage Sonny to go through them quicker!

And above all - have fun, end on a high and remember that just 10 minutes of a new command can tire little brains out - have a play after training and don't push too hard - he's only a baby yet!

Diana