Clomicalm

[KathP]

One of our dogs has just started on Clomicalm (since yesterday) for her separation anxiety, which is causing excessive barking. She's 18.2kg so they put her on the 20mg, on 1 tablet a day, in combination with everything else we have already been doing. On the little info sheet that comes in the box, it says 2 a day though, so I'm wondering if the dose sounds OK?

They warned us she might be very dopey, but in fact there doesn't really seem to be any difference in her at all - just as hyper/obsessive and energetic as usual. Should I be able to notice at least some difference in her?

I was at home today so several times I sent out the front for varying lenghts of time to listen, and she was barking just as frantically as usual. I have no idea how long it's been going on for - the neighbours only told us about 3 weeks ago so we'd been trying behaviour modification, training, rescue remedy etc with no effect. Maybe I'm expecting the medication to provide some change too soon, but I was hoping for some improvement because she ought to be calmer.

[Dogsfevr]

I believe the product can take up to 6 months to work but have seen many dogs on it be no different or infact worse than before.

You can try all the drugs in the worl but retraining will get the best results & if the behaviour has happened for awhile then it will take longer to retrain out of it.

Maybe you need to look at her routine,boredom levels & diet,there are many more alternative methods that can be used than doping the dog out.Set up a video camera & in her area & video what exactly she does,where she barks etc etc

[KOE]

My friend has her cat on it, it took a few months but she has stopped peeing on cars but she is still as vocal as ever SIAMESE.

[Clyde]

.

You can try all the drugs in the worl but retraining will get the best results

Yes, however the dog will probably be more receptive to re training if calmed down a little, and then you can wean off the meds. I have had one dog on clomicalm with good results combined with behavioural help, and one cat with terrible results who just looked stoned all the time and hardly ever opened her eyes (so took her off it).

[haven]

I used clomicalm 80 for my GSD who was extremely fearful of everything when I got him 3 yrs ago. in my opinion it took the edge of things but really didn't do much and was extremely expenseive. Since then I have used other things with much more sucess. Seeing a behaviourist wouldn't be a bad idea. They can explain things like independance training, the importance of leadership and how to show it etc. Also I'd recommend a change in diet, DAP and consider using natural therapies. Gotta get off the puter so can't go into it now but there is another thread where I wrote all the info....the one about the timid retreiver

Edited May 25, 2005 by haven

[KathP]

We are using the Clomicalm is conjunction with retraining, since after several weeks it hasn't made any difference on it's own. We don't have a video camera, but I have hidden in the carport and listened to what happens. She barks inside, going from room to room and then she goes outside and barks. According to the neighbours this usually goes on for about 3 hours.

We have increased time spent with basic training, instituted times where the dogs aren't allowed to sit with us, have periods with a closed door between me/us and the dogs, and teaching her to stay while I leave the room and she can't see me any more. When at home I also go though the motions of going to leave and then not, going out for varying periods (5, 10, 20 mins etc). I ignore them for at least 10 minutes before leaving, and until they calm down when I get home. The tv or radio is left on and there are plenty of treats and toys - including kongs, treat balls, food dispensing stuff. We have tried the citronella anti-barking collar which works if we're there, but once we're gone she just keeps barking citronella or not. We also have a DAP diffuser, and I've been using rescue remedy, red chestnut, Dog Be Calm - any natural remedy we've been able to find. Her diet consists mainly of homemade food, and we only buy commercial dry food with no artifical colours etc. We have made sure since she was a puppy that she didn't get the little extras that would make her more hyper - as a kelpie she's energetic enough!

In short putting her on any drugs is not a decision made lightly, but for her sake we have to try everything. We're concerned that if it continues one of our less friendly neighbours might do something not very nice (and I don't mean call the council). If the drugs can calm her enough for the retraining to have an effect then I think it will be worth it. But at the moment they're having no effect at all.

A behaviourist would be great, but we can't afford it, and apparently we would also have to go to Melbourne to see one.

[Miranda]

The tv or radio is left on and there are plenty of treats and toys - including kongs, treat balls, food dispensing stuff.

You could always try giving her a big MEATY bone, she'd be so surprised it might keep her quiet for hours!

Sorry KathP, not trying to belittle what is a very serious problem, just couldn't resist making that little joke

I'm not a great believer in Clomicalm either, but it apparently does help in some cases and I hope it works for you. It certainly helps the vets' hip pockets!

[KathP]

Well, we are going to try bones to see if that helps, but we're going to get the smoked bones. One idea is to give a stash to our nice neighbours and when she goes off outside he can give her one over the fence and hopefully that will keep her happy. Because we have a doggy door and they can go in and out at will, I'm not that keen on coming home to find bones buried under pillows etc, but I wll just have to cope I suppose. I've tried to teach them that bones must stay outside, but with limited success. I am more able to deal with the smoked ones than the big raw ones which I can't even look at. My OH is supposed to make the puchase today - I'll probably have to call and remind him.

[Miranda]

I don't eat meat either KathP so I know what you mean, I hope you have some success with the smoked bones, it does sound like a good idea.

[Poppy's mum]

We had a poodle with sep anxiety - howled the place down every time we went out. For hours on end. This went on for 3 months, then he stopped. We tried all the usual and tranquillizers - they didn't seem to have any effect one time and the other time he sicked the tablet up (so we gave up on them) and he gradually improved. Neighbours were obviously pretty patient.

[mita]

We've also had 2 dogs with SA...one a ripper & shredder of furniture, and the other a screamer...top note & constant. They became OK with strategies...no medication...advised by specialist behaviourist vet. She didn't mention meds...& I didn't know then such things were available.

Did most of the things you've described.

One thing we found was that the dogs were better confined to a specific place....& not given the choice of roaming. We have a smallish verandah room that's weatherproof & pleasant and that's where we set up the dogs' home-alone spot (mats, water, toys rubbed on our hands to get scent on etc).

(Maybe a more confined spot would allow your dogs to have the big bones to chew away at?)

Also found that it helped to train our dogs to spend time in this Being-Alone spot...even when we were at home. Because that was when we could give the negative reinforcement to the screaming or whining or whatever, by totally ignoring it....& positive reinforcement when there was quiet (a treat or a pat or whatever.). Result was...if dogs became tolerant & happy when left alone while we were at home...they were more likely to do the same when we were out.

The other things that helped was the obedience training...having to obey 'Sit' to get anything good like pats, treats. For the 'screamer', we turned our backs & ignored her if ever she used her voice to get our attention. Only when she was quiet, she got attention, pat, treat or whatever.

The behaviorist vet told us that the dogs learning to earn good things with good behaviour, would make them less likely to demand...like scream or destroy.

With a highly stressed foster dog that had SA, another vet prescribed Valium, rather than Clomicalm. He said Valium doesn't sedate so the dog could learn all the behavioral things...& it'd be only temporay. It did work well for that dog...& only needed it for about 7-10 days.

Edited May 27, 2005 by mita

[haven]

SA or SRB as some prefer to call it now (separation related behaviour) can be a breed tendancy. It can also be genetic and if that's the case you are probably in it for the long haul. I applaud your efforts, you have taken a lot of great measures. I definately recommend bones and all things chewable. Licking and chewing increases seretonin levels in the brain, which controls anxiety, that's why so many dogs with SRB are destructive or self harming chewers .

I thought I was just 'fine tuning' when I changed my GSDs diet but it has been one of the biggest infuences in treating his anxiety.

Edited May 27, 2005 by haven

[Takani]

Hi,

One of the best books i can recommend for you to read is The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell. It covers many behavioural problems... If your dog is doing this every time you leave then your dog thinks it is the leader and you need to change that, once you do this the behaviour should stop. This book is definately a great investment for sanity. Hope this helps you.....

[haven]

If your dog is doing this every time you leave then your dog thinks it is the leader and you need to change that, once you do this the behaviour should stop.

Rubbish! Certainly increasing leadership can help dogs with separation related behaviours but it should be part of a treatment plan, not THE treatment plan. Separation anxiety is a far more complex issue than 'your dog thinks it is the leader.'

[Guest LittlePixie]

One idea is to give a stash to our nice neighbours and when she goes off outside he can give her one over the fence and hopefully that will keep her happy.

I'm no expert and while I really hope you find a solution that works, I just thought I'd say quickly that this may end up making the situation slightly worse... she may think she is getting the bones as a reward from the neighbour. She could then start standing near the fence barking incessantly waiting for someone to throw a bone over... does this make sense?

Again, good luck and I hope you find a solution.

[ninaandted]

thanks so much for putting up this thread - I was going to ask a similar question!!

and thanks for the helpful replies.

[Axel]

Rubbish! Certainly increasing leadership can help dogs with separation related behaviours but it should be part of a treatment plan, not THE treatment plan. Separation anxiety is a far more complex issue than 'your dog thinks it is the leader.'

Haven, there are ways of DISCUSSING training techniques and there are ways of being rude.

that was rude.

I like coming on here and learning, not seeing people be rude to other people. everyone has their own ideas and own ways of training that work for each INDIVIDUAL dog, yes dogs are individuals.. and by coming on here people get different training ideas and get to use what works for them...there is no need to try and shoot peoples training methods and ideas down and be rude about it. If you dont agree, then say something constructive.. not RUBBISH!

anyway my 2 cents.

[Kavik]

I've considered clomicalm but haven't used it. I am also interested in other people's experiences.

The Beagle my parents had for a while (before they decided they couldn't cope with a bitey dog) had separation anxiety, he was a howler and barker nonstop when not with people. I had a hard time convincing them to try stuff, but they got several complaints from neighbours as well as no sleep.

What helped them was crate training the dog, and the use of an electric no-bark collar (he would bark straight through a citronella one). The crate gave him his own space, which he felt comfortable in.

[haven]

My appologies, it was not my intention to be rude, I just thought it a very irresponsible statement. I'll try to be more tactful.

[ninaandted]

Kavik,

the crate training idea is a very interesting one. was the beagle in a closed crate or could he come and go as he pleased? I'm looking for something to make Nina feel a bit safer in our backyard while we are out at work during the day. she's inside whenever we are home.