Vegetarian Diet

[haven]

George, If you find that feeding a vegetarien diet is a nutritionally viable option and your dog likes it (and I do believe these were your requirements all along) then go for it. We ALL force our 'opinions' on our dogs in regards to feeding, hopefully based on education and experience. Unless of course anyone here takes their dog shopping and lets them pick what they want for dinner? Doggy drive through? Nope don't think so.

[SkyesongTollrz]

Doggy drive through? Nope don't think so.

Now my dogs disagree with that! Of course they go through drive through!! A Maccas junior burger is the reward for a qualifier after a trial. A title is a Big Mac. ;) And if we don't stop, you can bet I get punished! :protest:

[SkyesongTollrz]

And you got advice from people who have been studying canine nutrition a lot longer than you, that have raised multiple litters, have competed at the top levels of their sports, and have owned dogs a far lot longer than you. That was the advice that you got. If you wanted a pat on the back then this isn't the website for you.

By your own words: "Never owned a GSD before in my life, in fact I've only ever had one dog and that is the 5 and a half month old puppy I have now.", "previous experience=none."

So you want "ADVICE"?

Cruel?

Mean?

Unnatural?

Depriving?

Neglectful?

Yes I do think forcing a dog into a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle is all of the above. A natural diet based on raw meaty bones is my best advice for feeding your dog.

Edited May 27, 2005 by SkyesongTollrz

[Nadia]

I am going to ask again

Has anyone got any links to studies on the long term effects of feeding Dogs a vegetarian Diet?

[Miranda]

EXCUSE ME? I never asked for opinions. I asked for ADVICE, BOOKS and WEBSITES. Read the first post and you will see nothing about opinions there. I personaly don't like hearing opinions because that's only what that particular person thinks, and it isn't fact.

Poodlefan- o.0 of course it would be organic/free range. I would never feed my dog anything that has spent the majority of it's life in a small pen.

George my Doggie I hope that you don't consider everything you read in books and on websites to be fact. There is more c**p written on the internet than anywhere else and I have seen books written about dogs (and many other subjects) that make no sense whatsoever. And what is advice if it's not based on opinions? If people have no opinions what advice can they offer................"err, I dunno"?

Also I hope that you have plenty of money if you are intending to feed your dog free range/organic meat. I am not poor, but I certainly can't afford to feed organic meat even though I would like to, it is much more expensive.

There are a lot of people on DOL who have years of experience in breeding, training and owning dogs and that is what counts, EXPERIENCE! You can read all the books and websites and do all the courses, but experience holds sway over theory every time. It's important to read about dogs and ask questions, but it's no substitute for the real thing. It is actual hands on EXPERIENCE that teaches you things and six months of dog ownership means that you know very little even if you think otherwise.

You seem to have lots of confidence in your own opinions which is probably why you are reluctant to accept or listen to those of others. Therefore I suggest that you go ahead and act on those opinions and I wish you luck.

Please don't think that I'm having a go at you, I am simply trying to help to the best of my ability and knowledge. It is the welfare of the dog that I am interested in, and I'm just trying to educate the owner. ;)

[Miranda]

I am going to ask again

Has anyone got any links to studies on the long term effects of feeding Dogs a vegetarian Diet?

I don't have any links Nadia, but I would certainly be interested in reading some studies if any have been done.

[Steve]

KathP

Can you tellme how many eggs you put in your mix ,ie what is the ratio of egg to your vegie mix anddo you add the shell?

Here is a link for the minimum nutritional requirements of dogs and many of the 10 essential amino acids a dog needs [ humans need 8 ] are not found in vegies or grains.

Also an article written re the cons of vegetarian diets for dogs.

Nadia I dont know of any reserach re the long term effects of a diet such as this but there are thousands of research papers on amino acids, protein, vitamin and mineral mix and their impact on longevity, bone and joint function etc .

The science on what each nuttrient is used for and how diet impacts on the LONG TERM well being of the dog just doesnt support the concept of a vegetarian diet for dogs unless amino acids and several other nutrients are added as suppliments.

There is one study that was conducted whioch showed that adding vegetable fat [ eg flax seed and sunflower] did improve the dogs coat over a 20 day period but over an 85 day period the goodeffects backed off to the same condition as before the beginning of the suppliment .

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/health/nutri.htm

http://www.canoe.ca/Health0001/09_linton.html

[Miranda]

Steve I know that this is going off topic a bit, but can you tell us what you feed to your dogs? I would be very interested as I remember you saying somewhere that you don't see many health problems and since I had a relatively young dog die from cancer a few years back I have become very interested in this subject. I feed lots of meat and bones, veggies etc., but they still get 1 cup of kibble a day (Eagle Pack Holistic) and I can't seem to find the courage to wean them off kibble altogether.

If this has alraedy been discussed somewhere else, can you give me a link to it?

Many thanks. ;)

[Steve]

Just for the record it wasnt my intention to insult you and Im sorry you felt that way . My intention was to state that based on the fact as I know them feeding a dog a vegetarian diet is very dangerous and I would expect that it would impact eventually on its quality of life and longevity . I can tell you these facts If I was the breeder and you told me that you were going to feed a dog I sold you a vegetarian diet I wouldnt sell it to you. If I was an insurance company and found that you had fed a large breed dog a vegetarian diet I wouldnt pay the insurance. If you came back to me because the dog had a problem such as HD and wanted compensation I wouldnt give it.

You asked for advice and mine is , dont feed it .Its not a persoanl attack on you but my views on the diet you asked about.

[raz]

I for one have reaped the rewards of some of the advice on this thread. Very informative. Keep it coming.

Very interesting comment on the veg fat, Steve. I often wondered about that.

[greentea]

Hey George don't get upset with all the self-righteous rubbish being spat at you. You clearly love your dog and want to do the right thing.

My baby puppy eats bones and raw food and kibble sometimes, he seems to like this diet and is healthy so far. I only feed him organic meat and bones though, as that is what I buy for the house. We only ever have organic veges too. It's a personal choice.

As for people worrying that it is costly, well at Potts Point Woolies I can say I have found that the organic meat items are often on sale and are less than the intensively farmed meat items. I will never knowingly eat anything that comes from intensively farmed animals, this for me is an animal welfare issue. As for the organic fruit and veges I prefer them they seem to taste better but who knows it could just be in my head.

Oh and before some know-it all spits back that intensive farming isn't all that bad blah blah, well I have studied animal law for a long time I have seen enough to turn me against intensive farming for life.

At the end of the day George My Doggie and anyone else who is a little over being lectured by dog-experts and the like, I feel the best thing to do is be confident in the fact that there are vets you can take your animals to and have them make sure the animal is thriving and well. As long as the diet he or she is on is keeping him or her in great health then who cares what someone on an internet forum says.

George you probably thought you would find helpful supportive people here and were shocked by the attacks on you, I was too. There are some fantastic people here but there are also some lunatics you wouldn't spend a minute talking to in the real world so don't waste your time doing it here.

Some people believe pet owners are brainless, other think show people are cruel, who cares; just love your animals treat them with kindness and respect and make sure they are as healthy as they can be.

[Miranda]

My baby puppy eats bones and raw food and kibble sometimes, he seems to like this diet and is healthy so far. I only feed him organic meat and bones though, as that is what I buy for the house. We only ever have organic veges too. It's a personal choice.

As for people worrying that it is costly, well at Potts Point Woolies I can say I have found that the organic meat items are often on sale and are less than the intensively farmed meat items. I will never knowingly eat anything that comes from intensively farmed animals, this for me is an animal welfare issue. As for the organic fruit and veges I prefer them they seem to taste better but who knows it could just be in my head.

Yes I agree with you greentea, I only eat organic vegetables and I think they taste better too, plus you just feel better about eating them. I don't eat meat at all, partly because of the health issues (totally separate topic so I'm not going into that) and partly because of the way intensively farmed animals are treated.

Unfortunately I have never seen organic meat at our local Safeway (I think that's Woolies?), we have an organic butcher near us, but the meat is quite expensive and I have more than one dog. I do feed organic free range eggs though, I never, ever buy eggs from battery farmed chooks. I would love to feed organic meat if I could.

[Steve]

greentea What self rigteous rubbish?

[B]My baby puppy eats bones and raw food and kibble sometimes, he seems to like At the end of the day

Thats good but organic meat is grown for the food chain just as any other is its also killed the same way and what you describe isnt a vegetarian diet . Big organic farms around here have just as intensive operations as we do The difference is in the chemicals used not how intensive it is. Organic vegies are grown in poo instead of fertilizer pellets and no chemicals are used. Cattle and sheep are raised without chemicals and drenches etc. Their throats are still cut and their only purpose for existence is to feed humans. Our farm [ not organic] has less cattle per hectare than a local organic farm . Chickens are just as intensively farmed when they are raised organically as they are otherwise.

At the end of the day George My Doggie and anyone else who is a little over being lectured by dog-experts and the like, I feel the best thing to do is be confident in the fact that there are vets you can take your animals to and have them make sure the animal is thriving and well.

Much of what can go wrong makes it appear that the dog is thriving and well and results in a few months or years with a problem Its why when I spoke about your problem with suspected joint problems that I recommended particular nutrients to protect the dog for the whole of its life not just to make all seem well for now,

Its good to know that everyone is an expert and that it comes so easily . It doesnt take a life time of study or years of experience to be able to answer a question with knowledge on nutrition for canines all it takes is to own a pup for a few months Then you can call anyone who attempts to help you or someone else self righteous and similar .

Sometimes I wonder why I bother.

[greentea]

Self-righteous rubbish umm I was thinking about oh things along the line of:

"It is actual hands on EXPERIENCE that teaches you things and six months of dog ownership means that you know very little even if you think otherwise."

Steve YOUR advice to me was amazing it was what you told me that stopped the eukanuba diet the breeder recommended and started the bones and raw meat diet. YOUR advice to me about my dog has always been given kindly and in a helpful manner. YOU have never been self righteous in your advice I was not referring to you Steve.

All I am trying to say to George and anyone else who gets 'told off' or patronised by other people on this forum, is that it isn't worth getting upset about as George seemed to be rather hurt

"EXCUSE ME? I never asked for opinions. I asked for ADVICE, BOOKS and WEBSITES. Read the first post and you will see nothing about opinions there. I personaly don't like hearing opinions because that's only what that particular person thinks, and it isn't fact. "

I wanted George to feel confident instead of being insulted, I was quite insulted by some posts directed at me last week and for that reason I was trying to be supportive of George.

As I have said a million times I am no expert on dogs and nor will I ever be, all I am doing is trying to care for my dog as best I can and make sure he is healthy and happy. I am not advising George how to feed his/her dog. I am just telling George not to feel down about the responses and also let george know what I do and that I am happy because it works for me. Trying to do what you think is important, acting with integrity... It appears that is what George is doing too. Steve's advice about canine nutrician is the most helpful as it is factual.

If you re-read my post you will see all I am saying is at the end of the day you can't follow everyone's instructions because they all differ don't they? You have to work out which thing works for you and your pet. Saying things like owning a dog for a few months doesn't make you an expert, doesn't help George to feed his/her dog does it? It just makes George feel hurt and maybe embarrassed.

Nor does inferring someone who wanted a professional to groom their dog was somehow irresponsible.

Do you know what I mean? Support and advice is one thing, offering facts and figures is helpful and helps us newbies do what is best.

As for the intensively farmed animals vs certified organically farmed animals, that is another debate and in fact the topic of a very long piece of academic writing we have been working on. I won't bore everyone with the facts of my research.

Do what you believe in your heart is the best thing to do and have an objective observer confirm or deny. That is the best thing you can do, otherwise you will be running from one instruction to another.

Over and out.

(edited because I am useless with posting quotes. sorry if hard to follow.)

Edited May 28, 2005 by greentea

[Rozzie]

Re the organically raised meat... I work with a girl whose farm is certified organic... their cattle are farmed much more intensively than ours!

[Miranda]

Has anyone on this forum actually bred a bitch and raised a litter of puppies whilst feeding a vegetarian diet? Because, to me, this is one of the most important questions. If a bitch can conceive, gestate and whelp a litter of puppies who grow normally without being fed any meat products whatsoever then a vegetarian diet may have some credence. Procreation is vital to any species and if a bitch cannot sucessfully reproduce on a vegetarian diet then it stands to reason that vegetarianism is not a suitable regimen for a canine.

BTW I would never attempt to breed a bitch and raise the puppies without meat, but if someone has done so (especially with a large breed) I would love to hear about it.

[Steve]

O.K. Greentea I hear what you're saying and no one wants to chase George or anyone else off with redneck attitudes . The fault is with us if we came off as being anything other than wanting to help and it was never my intension to insult or badger anyone into my way of thinking . Ill pull my head in .

[Toohey]

Thanks for clearing that up Greentea.

Steve has an incredible wealth of accurate and enormously helpful knowledge that she never hesitates to share with us all. My dogs have benefited greatly from her knowledge, as has my breeder and her dogs.

This thread has been very informative ;)

[Miranda]

Self-righteous rubbish umm I was thinking about oh things along the line of:

"It is actual hands on EXPERIENCE that teaches you things and six months of dog ownership means that you know very little even if you think otherwise."

Steve YOUR advice to me was amazing it was what you told me that stopped the eukanuba diet the breeder recommended and started the bones and raw meat diet. YOUR advice to me about my dog has always been given kindly and in a helpful manner. YOU have never been self righteous in your advice I was not referring to you Steve.

Nor does inferring someone who wanted a professional to groom their dog was somehow irresponsible.

Oh dear greentea you really don't like me do you? It's lucky I'm not sensitive. but then I'm a dog show person, how could I survive in the dog showing game if I was sensitive ;)

George my Doggie posted on the Training forum a few months ago and had some very strong opinions on how to train dogs and what methods to use, she also mentioned how easy she found it all. She was very reluctant to listen to anyone else's views and opinions and now I see that she is having some very serious problems with her dog, including aggression..................need I say more?

She is now doing exactly the same thing in this topic and getting annoyed when most people's opinions do not coincide with her own. All I am saying is that GMD is a little over-confident considering that she has only had a dog for six months. When it's your first dog and you've only had it for a short time you really do know very little and here I'm definitely speaking from experience because I've been there myself. You don't learn anything by going into something with preconceived opinions which you have no intention of changing, why bothering asking advice at all?

Now, the Infamous Grooming Topic!!!! Greentea, I never said that you were irresponsible because you wanted a professional to groom your dog, I just said that your breeder should have informed you better about the specific presentation requirements of the breed. Please go back and reread the topic. I know how hard it is to groom one of these breeds and I have every sympathy, my breed needs specialised grooming too and I know how hard it is to learn.

What upset me was when you asked if you could send your dog away for training at 12 weeks of age. Having just read your previous topic I mistakenly jumped to the conclusion that you just couldn't be bothered to learn to do it yourself, no, that's not quite correct, it was your seeming unwillingness to try to learn to do it that got to me, not the fact that you couldn't. If you had mentioned that you had a major health problem at the start of the topic there wouldn't have been a problem, one can only reply to the facts given.

Anyway that's all water under the bridge now, I hope that we can get on better in the future. :D Regarding GMD I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

BTW to quote just click the 'quote' button, a little box will appear with the text and you can edit as you wish and then reply in the larger box above. I hope you find this little bit of advice helpful at least!

[Staff'n'Toller]

Well this topic went a little haywire.....anyhow George my Doggie I found this for you as I have just taken out a subscription of 'The Whole Dog Journal'. You can do a search of back issue articles and buy them separately for 7.50USD.

Hope it helps!! ;)

vegie dogs

That link just has a little blurb, you need to purchase the whole article.

Cheers,

Mel.