Vegetarian Diet

[Steve]

A dog's digestive tract isnt the same as a humans andd they cant assimilate many vegies unless they are pulverised as the cell wall broken down and even then it's a hard ask.

I agree that a vegetarian diet in comparison to a commercial diet would probably be better but there havebeen many studies on amino acids [ found in meat] and what benefits they have for the dog and literally how the dog cant live without them Its why raw food [ meat is such a wonderful thing for them as the amino acids are intact and not destroyed by cooking etc . because of the way the dog assimialates his food getting the right balances of minerals is very difficult and protein is a real challenge especially when soy products are no good .

This is all about common sense and not looking at the dog as if its human . Have a look at how the dog has evolved and I promise Ive never seen my dogs eating my broccoli off the plants as they grow . Left to their own devices they eat meat as a preference .

if you do decide to go ahead with this and Im definitely against the whole concept, you will need to add enzymes to help the dog digest and assimilate the food as it doesnt make enough if the type of enzymes required to break a lot of vegies down effectively . You will also need to add amino acid powder or it will be deficient in these and without them you will see things such as kidney problems, pancreatic and liver problems and a miriad of others including cardiomyopathy which is caused by a lack of taurine which is only found naturally in raw meat You will also need to add omega 3 and 6 fatty acids and a vitamin and mineral suppliment .

remember also that a dog can look like its doing O.K. on most diets for a fair length of time and when things do start to turn up its blamed on the genetics, or old age or just an act of God and the diet isnt taken into account because its been fed for a while with what appears to be good results.

Its your dog and your risk but before you take the plunge at least take a look at the differences between dogs and humans and a good look at how their digestive system operates . Give your dog a Bone is a great book to have even if you do feed commercial or vegan as it explains the dog and not human digestion and feeding.

If you dont agree with killing animals to eat them better let your dog know this as dog's have been killing animals for food and scavenging off other animals kill for a hell of a long time and given the chance thats exactly what he will do .

[KathP]

I think GMD has made it perfectly clear that she is going to make an informed, educated decision, that will not be to the detriment of her dog. If the dog refuses to eat or doesn't do well on the diet then she will change it. If dogs are perfectly happy eating a vegetarian diet, and healthy then I really don't see where this idea of it being 'cruel' comes from. GMD has never said that she will 'force' her dog to eat this food or that she will maintain if the dog isn't healthy on it.

I think the comments about being open minded go both ways on this issue.

I think the whole 'natural' argument is a bit tired. Very little in our or our dogs, cats or other animals lives can really be considered 'natural'.

[Steve]

Raw egg white does bind to biotin BUT mother nature provided the answer and if you eat the raw egg whole there's enough of all the good stuff in the yolk to override the issue. Raw egg is the best known source of digestible protein for a dog but you have to feed a hell of a lot of them to fill em up and to have a high enough ratio of protein when you mix it with the rest of the foods you need to do so.

[raz]

Great. Thanks for that as well Steve. All making more sense.

Very interesting thread.

[Steve]

I think GMD has made it perfectly clear that she is going to make an informed, educated decision, that will not be to the detriment of her dog. If the dog refuses to eat or doesn't do well on the diet then she will change it. If dogs are perfectly happy eating a vegetarian diet, and healthy then I really don't see where this idea of it being 'cruel' comes from. GMD has never said that she will 'force' her dog to eat this food or that she will maintain if the dog isn't healthy on it.

Sorry I thought GMD came here to get advice in helping her to make adecision either way and if you offer the dog nothing else in my opinion its forcing the dog to eat the food and she wont know what the long term results of feeding her dog a vegetarian diet are until much later in the dog's life.

Being open minded worked for me when I began studying canine nutrition and Ive been open minded while Ive been studying and learning about it and it means I have looked at it from all angles and I feel that based on this its a crock and is infact neglectful to feed a dog this way .

Very little in your dog's or cats lives may be considered natural but around here Ive got a fair number of dogs and cats that live as naturally as I can make it . Ive never had to clean an animals teeth ever and they have perfect teeth and sweet breath well into their late teens and 20's . Ive never had a dog with cancer, obesity or organ problems.

[Miranda]

Great post Steve, I entirely agree with you. Incidentally when we lived in the country my dogs used to catch rabbits, usually young ones that couldn't run quite as fast, but occasionally they'd catch adults too. They used to eat every single piece of those rabbits, nothing would be wasted or discarded and their poos used to come out filled with fur.

IMO my dogs were never healthier or happier than at that time. I'm certainly not into hunting and as I've already stated I don't eat meat, but even though I felt guilty (I don't really know why) whenever they caught a rabbit I never tried to stop them because it's natural and that's what dogs do.

I did, of course, worm them regularly, and they certainly never suffered any ill effects from their truly 'natural' diet.

[persephone]

Great post Steve, I entirely agree with you. Incidentally when we lived in the country my dogs used to catch rabbits, usually young ones that couldn't run quite as fast, but occasionally they'd catch adults too. They used to eat every single piece of those rabbits, nothing would be wasted or discarded and their poos used to come out filled with fur.

IMO my dogs were never healthier or happier than at that time. I'm certainly not into hunting and as I've already stated I don't eat meat, but even though I felt guilty (I don't really know why) whenever they caught a rabbit I never tried to stop them because it's natural and that's what dogs do.

I did, of course, worm them regularly, and they certainly never suffered any ill effects from their truly 'natural' diet.

Well written, Steve.

Miranda,

I can identify with this one..When ours are fed bunnies..it's usually the whole deal(after a quick check for hydatid cysts )

cats are the same....all they leave of little bunnies is the actual stomach

Our working dogs are mostly fed raw (meat),,with some dry.LOTS of bones..& whole animals. Never any upset stomachs or dirty teeth..altho teeth wear quickly.Most live well into their teens..we have a 13 y.o who will still jump a 1.5 mtr fence..& who still chases the horse around!! :rolleyes: We attribute her love of llife still to the fact she will happily steal & eat up to a dozen eggs at a sitting!!!

[Staranais]

If feeding meat is against your morals, but you're not sure if your dog will be healthy on a vegetarian diet...

Why not feed them semi-veg?

Feed them enough meat to keep them healthy, but no more than they need. Most feral dogs I've seen in 3rd world countries don't eat meat at every meal, and they seem pretty happy. They have evolved as opportunist scavengers, not as pure obligate carnivores (like the big cats, for example).

Also, perhaps you could replace some of the meat with fish, if you find that ethically preferable? It is also a source of high class animal protein.

(BTW my dog eats about 1/3 raw meaty bones, 1/3 kibble, and 1/3 vegetarian table scraps. He's healthy as anything! )

[George my Doggie]

Out of interest, is it because of the way animals are farmed, or would you be against the dog eating meat they have naturally caught and killed?

The way they are farmed. If I could let my dog go out and catch rabbits, I would.

If feeding meat is against your morals, but you're not sure if your dog will be healthy on a vegetarian diet...Why not feed them semi-veg?

That's what I plan to do if the veg diet doesn't work out. Although I won't be feeding fish. Maybe just chicken and pork.

think GMD has made it perfectly clear that she is going to make an informed, educated decision, that will not be to the detriment of her dog. If the dog refuses to eat or doesn't do well on the diet then she will change it. If dogs are perfectly happy eating a vegetarian diet, and healthy then I really don't see where this idea of it being 'cruel' comes from. GMD has never said that she will 'force' her dog to eat this food or that she will maintain if the dog isn't healthy on it.

I think the comments about being open minded go both ways on this issue.

I think the whole 'natural' argument is a bit tired. Very little in our or our dogs, cats or other animals lives can really be considered 'natural'.

I do agree.

I 'it's not natural' is the best you can do, I really don't think it's going to change my mind and I don't really care if it isn't natural.

[poodlefan]

GMD:

Maybe just chicken and pork.

Don't even THINK about pork if its not organic. Sheep and Cattle lead much better lives than intensively farmed pigs. I haven't eaten pork since the day I visited a piggery over 20 years ago. :rolleyes:

[Miranda]

Don't even THINK about pork if its not organic. Sheep and Cattle lead much better lives than intensively farmed pigs. I haven't eaten pork since the day I visited a piggery over 20 years ago. :rolleyes:

Yes this is true, I've been in a piggery and they're horrific, intensively farmed chickens are no better off either.

[espinay2]

The way they are farmed. If I could let my dog go out and catch rabbits, I would.

If you are ok with rabbit, then you can buy wild raised/caught rabbit from a lot of chicken places and some dog meat suppliers. You can also buy other 'game' animals which are wild caught from many places too.

Poodlefan is right - beef and lamb is actually raised in much better conditions than most commercial chicken or pork.

How about this for starters: wild rabbit, fish, free range organic poultry. Look for other organically and grassfed/raised meats as well.

If you havent read the article I posted, I suggest doing so. It will outline for you the things you will need to take into consideration when formulating a diet.

[~Anne~]

Wow, great thread!

Out of curiosity KathP - what does your dog eat on a day to day basis?

[Guest Tess32]

Yes I'm confused - why would you feed pork of all things?

Nat

[SkyesongTollrz]

>>>I 'it's not natural' is the best you can do, I really don't think it's going to change my mind and I don't really care if it isn't natural.<<<

Well why even bother asking for opinions if you have no intention of even considering them? You obviously have your mind made up, and the information from experienced people holds no weight for you.

[KathP]

Puggles,

Each week I make a mixture of rice, raw vegies (blended), tvp, oats (blended), yogurt and eggs - I vary the composition a bit so they don't get bored, and usually cook the rice in a low salt stock (I use Massel) for extra flavour. We also get a suppliment called vegedog from the US which is added. That's their dinner. For breakfast they get vitabrits with some commerical dry food. The recipe is based on one from Bark Busters, but the vegedog also comes with recipes. The dogs love it - they try to steal it out of the container as I make it. Mushroom is their biggest favourite, and they'll sit begging for some while I'm making dinner. If you leave any on the counter unguarded it'll quickly disappear, they've also been known to steal fruit out of the fruit bowl and eat it. Outside they eat corn, tomatoes, pumpkin (babies), strawberries etc straight off the vine or plant. The cats like to eat the broccoli plants.

Through the day they have food dispensing toys - kongs, treat balls etc stuffed with some dry food and other treats like peanut butter.

[~Anne~]

Wow thanks KathP :rolleyes:

My dogs are not vegetarians but they do get a similar diet although we also add fresh meat. Mine adore yoghurt particularly..... well anything actually, being Pugs they are natural pigs and will eat me if I stand still long enough.

This topic has been very emlightening but as I know nothing about vegetarian requirements for humans or dogs I'll stick with the tried and tested.

Edited to add: What is tvp?

Edited May 27, 2005 by Puggles

[KathP]

tvp - texturised vegetable protein

[George my Doggie]

Well why even bother asking for opinions if you have no intention of even considering them? You obviously have your mind made up, and the information from experienced people holds no weight for you.

EXCUSE ME? I never asked for opinions. I asked for ADVICE, BOOKS and WEBSITES. Read the first post and you will see nothing about opinions there. I personaly don't like hearing opinions because that's only what that particular person thinks, and it isn't fact. With opinion, there is no right or wrong answer.

I hate it when people try to force their their opinions down my throat. It only makes me more set against that idea.

There is a difference between giving advice, and giving an opinion. I have nothing against hearing both sides, but I do hate it when people say that's cruel/mean/unnatural/depriving/neglectful.

I've seen it done and it can be done, and the dog will be just as happy and healthy as before.

But by all means, educate me of the cons.

Poodlefan- o.0 of course it would be organic/free range. I would never feed my dog anything that has spent the majority of it's life in a small pen.

Edited May 27, 2005 by George my Doggie

[Nekhbet]

GMD you wanted ADVICE and you go it, just because it doesnt agree with your opinion on the topic doesnt mean it is something to be dismissed, especially since you profess you dont know what you are talking about. OK so some people think its neglectful. Thats just and opinion posted, I dont see people picketing your house in the wee hours of the morning screaming you neglect your dog, do you?

Why dont you grab a few 1000+ page nutrition and veterinary health books and start reading. Some people who HAVE done this are givin you advice so dont be quick to dismiss it because you choose to be against meat farming. Sometimes we have to bite the bullet for the sake of the greater good.

and a question. If a cow (a human created domestic species) didnt spend its life roaming hundreds of acres of grassland on a farm, where exactly woud it be? hmmm unfenced grassland, maybe riddled with ticks, worms and hunted by predators? I dont like animal cruelty but I have come to terms with the food chain long ago.

If you really want to know what your dog wants put a plate of cooked veges and a plate of fresh mince with some boiled rice and chopped veges, maybe a little fish sauce. THAT is giving the dog a choice, not just plonking 1 bowl down and seeing if the dog eats it because its hungry.