Vegetarian Diet

[Nadia]

Does anyone have any links to studies on the long term effects of feeding dogs vegetarian diets?

[haven]

No critiscism Poodlefan, but in case anyone is having trouble finding the book (and it's a must read for dog owner IMO) it's called 'Give your dog a bone.' You might get lucky and find it in a shop but I needed to order it from Dr. Billinghurst directly. This I was told after waiting 10 weeks for a book store to order it in for me I think the website is www.barfworld.com

[Nekhbet]

George, remember that yes you will be addressing obesity, poor quality food, grain etc but where is this directly linked to fresh meat? As with our own diets, many people switch to vegetarianism because they think it is the only lower their cholesterol, make them overall healthier etc. Everything in large quantities is bad, there is not one thing you can point to to say its the ultimate sin.

Trimmed meat, especially kangaroo, is low in fat and high in iron. If you want to be a breeder you need to investigate feeding of a pregnant bitch and puppies, vegetarian diet could be dangerous. Iron is hard to get in vegetables and bloat is a big risk in German shepherds and other large breeds if you are going to feed them huge quantities of broccoli, brussel sprouts etc. Dogs cant eat ALL types of vegetables too so the diet will be limited. Remember there are some amino acids that are from animal sources only and some cholesterol is required for cholesterol based hormones (Testosterone is basicly made from cholesterol) Dogs also require fatty acids for skin and coat health. And what will you give your dogs to chew for clean teeth? (I had a man with two vegetarian chihuhuas say 'sticks?')

Cooking also destroys many of the vitamins but the dogs will not be able to process uncooked foods like we can, so powders, drops, tablets etc will have to be added. I sound like a nag but I did Vet Science and Biochem at uni

As for the ethics, remember they are your ethics, not the dogs. OK I know you'll get upset by that and I dont mean to insult you in any way (I understand, I have a vegetarian bf) but why put your dog through the dietary risks and yourself through the torture of complicated diets because you dont agree that an animal purposely bred for consumption is then utilised for it.

Your dog IS at least in part a carnivorous animal. Yes vegetable matter is required for optimal health, but isnt a more natural alternative some fresh diced meat instead of highly processed vege protein, with added powders and bottled oils? Might as well feed it stuff from the bag...

Edited May 23, 2005 by Nekhbet

[KathP]

Hey GMD, check out these links Vegan Pet Vegepet Happy Pets. Some is available locally, and other stuff you can order from OS.

I am a vegan, and our dogs live very healthily and happily on a mostly vegetarian diet. Basically what we feed them is a BARF type diet, but we use TVP instead of meat. We've been feeding them this for years and they are all very healthy, and they love it. They do get chews and stuff for their teeth though. There are also vegie alternatives to chews available OS, but we simply can't afford it at the moment. The cats eat meat though - they won't even try anything else.

Added: another link http://www.yummyfordogs.org/

Edited May 23, 2005 by KathP

[Nekhbet]

Just remember for cats:

They require a source of Taurine and the mineral balance has to be monitored for kidney health. I havent seen a recomendation anywhere for cat vegetarian diets as they do require a predominantly meat diet, i think these diets have been considered dangerous to a cats heart. This goes for ferrets too, actually the higher the protein the better.

Rats do well on vege (theyre omnivores too) but TVP and tofu for them is a good idea too for muscles and coat.

[Miranda]

I am a vegan, and our dogs live very healthily and happily on a mostly vegetarian diet.

Yes I'm sure that this can be done with a lot of research and planning, although I still don't advocate the feeding of soy to dogs. However George my Doggie is intending to breed GSD's and I just can't imagine breeding dogs whilst feeding them a vegetarian diet. Personally I wouldn't even attempt it, so I'd be very interested to hear if you've ever had a litter.

Human vegan mothers frequently have babies with lower birth weights and I would imagine that this would be true for dogs too, but I'd be interested in your experiences.

[poodlefan]

Haven:

No critiscism Poodlefan, but in case anyone is having trouble finding the book (and it's a must read for dog owner IMO) it's called 'Give your dog a bone.'

Ooops

Watch out for those cruciforous vegetables too. Feeding them in too high a quantity suppresses a dog's thyroid function. :rolleyes:

[amstaffchick]

:rolleyes: kathp u feed ur dogs TVP instead of meat????????????WOW that must cost you heaps!

I used to eat TVP i would use it in vegie dishes to appease the meat eaters when they came over for tea lol but i dont anymore, They eat what i eat or they go out for tea lol.....

I used to use that other not sausage roll mix too ...cant recall what it was called..In a red box ? I look everywhere for it but can never find it now days....

Does anyone know what its called? It would be next to the tvp in shops and it was in a red box, u added water and bingo bango yummo sausage meat like stuff.....

[zayda_asher]

I'm veg too... have been for 16 years or more.... My dogs get Raw food diet!

If you do your research I'm sure you could manage it.... but I know there are a lot of things to avoid as mentioned like soy and certain veg.

Dogs are also often allergic to grains and flax seed is the omega 3 alternative to fish oil, however, many dogs are allergic to this too. Dogs find it hard to convert carbs and this can lead to fat... it is also thought that this can contribute to build up of tartar on the teeth as it is carbs that convert into sugars - so you may need to brush your dogs teeth....

This is the sort of stuff I would be doing a lot of research into before I converted my dogs.... Go to the B-naturals site (someone above gave the link). Lew is really good and has a lot of info on raw diets... she has a PhD in natural health so she knows what she is talking about.

Personally for Glen and myself: we are Veg without a doubt... but the dogs are omnivouris... they eat meat and some veg...... very happy and healthy. With Zayda's allergies raw works best.... Prepping their meat only confirms that we would never eat it!!

Good luck in whatever you choose...

Dan

Edited May 24, 2005 by zayda_asher

[George my Doggie]

As you're a male you probably don't have to watch your iron levels as much, but just make sure you eat plenty of iron rich vegetables.

Erhem...I am a GIRL. My dog is a male, hence my username.

And what will you give your dogs to chew for clean teeth?

Nylabones, kongs filled with cheese etc.

so you may need to brush your dogs teeth

I already brush my dog's teeth :rolleyes:

Thank you everyone that is being helpful. If my dog doesn't do well on a vegie diet, I'll feed him a natural diet ^.^

[Miranda]

Erhem...I am a GIRL. My dog is a male, hence my username.

Oops! So sorry for the misunderstanding LOL.

[aatainc]

If you are planning to feed some animal foods, such as eggs, milk, yoghurt etc, then it is possible (though unadvisable) to feed a dog a vegetarian diet. However, it is highly highly highly recommended NOT to feed a vegetarian diet to a pregnant or nursing bitch or new puppies.

Also, it is NOT POSSIBLE to feed a dog on a vegan diet. I have read this many times over. they NEED some animal protein, so do not attempt a purely vegan diet. There will be vital things missing and the dog would eventually die of a deficiency.

I also second the call to avoid soy foods - they are not good for dogs. TVP can give them terrible gas though your welcome to put up with that if you want. (then again, if the dog has gas it's pretty sure that he has a stomach ache too!). The majority of the dog's diet for a vegetarian dog would have to be eggs and dairy products. I don't know how you would go with a lactose intolerant dog.

[KathP]

Miranda, all our animals are desexed so I can't help you on the litter thing. I have also chosen not to have skinkids but vegan friends who have them have all had normal to high birth weights in their kids.

Amstaffchick, we get our tvp in bulk from health food stores so it's not so expensive. The sausage roll stuff is by Sanitarium and is called something like Sausage Roll Filling (I can't remember exactly).

[haven]

Erhem...I am a GIRL. My dog is a male, hence my username.

It seems you're having an identity crisis

I'ts funny you get to know people through their posts and make assumptions only to find they are not who you thought :rolleyes:

[t-time]

Throw in my 2 cents worth..

Had an elderly BC staying with us for a while, fed commercial food and bones. Absolutely STANK - like REALLY, REALLY VILE. The worst doggy smells I've ever come across.

French friend, recently arrived in Oz was amazed that dogs got fed meat.

Apparently a huge percentage of pet dogs in Europe are only fed veges - meat is way too expensive for the average person to eat let alone feeding it to a dog!

Let's not forget that the French eat all the offal bits and that's one of the historical reasons why - small country, not enough room for a lot of livestock, couldn't afford to keep it's starving population alive and therefore they eat every part of the animal.

So, vegetarian diet for dogs is a very common phenomenon. We followed her directions for the vege soup as she convinced us that the dog wouldn't smell if it ate only veges. She had a GSD who lived to a ripe old age and always fed on this vege soup diet etc etc. all sounded good.

After a hell of a lot of effort and persistence, the soup smelled fantastic, looked fantastic, healthy as anything - the dog wouldn't touch it!

;) :p

My dogs now or on a BARF diet. They get everything they need and even then they will scavenge the chook food and pick pumpkins out of the garden.

I'll say it again and again - EDUCATION :rolleyes:

[bommy]

GMD,

hi mate, just a quick question have you spoken to George's breeder about this??? Just curious as I have to wonder if it would void a health contract? and perhaps increase the chances of HD/ED? Especially in a large breed dog? seeing as you want to breed will it affect hd/ed in litters?

Back when I first joined I think there was a similar discussion about this but for the life of me i cant find it, but someone in there recommended an Animal Nutritionist by name & I thought perhaps they would be a good contact ppoint... Good Luck

Jacqui

[KathP]

Our dogs actually have less gas than dogs I know that eat meat, and our oldest dog certainly has far less, and is far less stinky than when she ate meat.

You know I still get told by lots of people including doctors that a vegetarian diet isn't healthy let alone a vegan one. Go figure? If you know what you're doing and have a healthy balanced diet then it really isn't an issue. Education, education, education!

I know dogs and cats who are fed a vegan diet and are healthy after many years on it - if you do your research you'll find that especially OS there are many alternatives to provide everything they need. Vegetarian diets for dogs are very common in other countries, as t-time said.

[aatainc]

I should clarify what I Said above, a vegan diet is only possible if you add supplements. Kathp, if you know a cat that is on a vegan diet, it has either only been on it for a short time and hasn't suffered the ill effects yet, or it is being supplemented with taurine, or it is getting meat from elsewhere (such as hunting lizards outside) or it is going blind.

Cats cannot live without taurine. They go blind. Taurine is only found in animal products (or supplements.) period.

Dogs can't live without the essential fatty acids and amino acids. These can only be obtained in available quantities via animal products - unless you buy an extracted supplement.

That's why they can't live on vegan diets - without supplements.

[KathP]

The cats I know on a vegan diet are supplemented with vegecat which provide sufficient taurine. One cat has been on the diet for more than 8 years now, and is fine.

[George my Doggie]

I won't be feeding him on a vegan diet. I'll probably give him lactose-free milk, eggs yolks and cheese. Just so you people won't worry about nothing, I know not to give him more than 4 eggs per week. ((at least that's what my book said...and if you feed the whites you can only give two per week because the whites have something in them that is toxic to dogs...is all that correct?))

hi mate, just a quick question have you spoken to George's breeder about this??? Just curious as I have to wonder if it would void a health contract? and perhaps increase the chances of HD/ED? Especially in a large breed dog? seeing as you want to breed will it affect hd/ed in litters?

I have no idea who George's breeder is. I got him from rescue, and he is a medium sized dog. He's a border collie cross bluey and has been desexed.

I have no German Shepherd yet, but I might...might...be getting one next year. It will be a female, and I may just train her for obedience as my boss is going to put me in touch with an obedience trainer. I will probably save showing - and breeding - for a time when I have access to show training.

Edited May 25, 2005 by George my Doggie