"only Dog Syndrome"

[fido666]

Hi all,

I have a young (almost 12mths old) entire male Collie Rough. He broke his leg at 5 mths old and needed follow up surgery in Jan this year to correct a growth deformity in the bone following the break. As a result he has been confined to the house and small yard for many months, he has only been cleared to get out and about in the last month. During the recovery period he was only allowed leash walks and did not get to see many dogs (only at physio or the vet).

I have recently started taking Duncan back to training, before the surgery he had attended Puppy Preschool and Canine Basics courses. At class he is incredibly distracted to start with. The trainer we have been going to has "encouraged" me to think about Duncan's suitability for a class environment.

She went on to say that "unless he can pay attention to you 'no matter what'

you will not have much success in a class situation".

I agree he is very distracted but since he's not food motivated and I'm not allowed to use squeaky toys in class (and I accept why), I don't quite know what else I can do. Rope toys work for a while but he has an overriding desire to see what the other dogs are doing, tucking him round the corner away from them does not help much (in fact it seems to make him worse). It worked in puppy class but he is much older and bigger now.

Short of starving him (which I will not do) I can't force him to live only for food. We withheld most of his dinner the night before the 2nd class and skipped his brekkie (he was really annoyed about that) on the morning of class and it didn't make any difference. It was half way through class before he realised I had nice yummy roast pork in my treat pouch. I know about NILIF but it is not practical to serve all his meals (vegies, pasta, rice, etc) as treats. We went through a phase of "I will only eat if you hand feed it to me" and don't wish to go that road again.

Am I being unreasonable in being annoyed at the trainer over this? She can't seem to cope with the fact that not every dog in the world lives for food. I know I have some catching up to do as Duncan has missed out on a lot of socialisation with his confinement. He is very good at home but just loves the company of other dogs (he is currently an only dog) so gets very excited when he sees them.

Sorry to go on, I've always had multiple dogs before so don't know if this is "only child syndrome" or just bad behaviour. I have been advised by the same trainer to not get another dog until he is at least 18 mths old (behaviour problems at around this age cited as the reason). Any advice gratefully accepted and sorry for the loooong post.

Cheers,

Corine

[Staff'n'Toller]

Where abouts are you training?? (Can pm me that answer if you feel comfortable)

My Staffy had Panosteitis at 6mths and spent 3 mths away from training and confined...this resulted in the same sort of thing, she missed a critical time in her life to socialise and train near other dogs.

Although I had the reverse - I had my trainer telling me I was expecting too much from her since she had missed out on a few months training at that all-important-time. The circumstances were different though, i was training at a club that used praise and the release command and didn't rely on or use food at all.

Why not just use a special toy a nice small teddy bear that you only bring out for training- it doesn't have to have a squeak in it.

Or can you release him at the end of the exercise and take him out for a game of short fetch on lead with a ball perhaps???

Segregating him may only cause frustration which sounds like you have identified already. He still needs to be able to see the dogs but at a distance away from them to start off with.

When I used to take classes we would recognise the critical distance which is the distance he needs to be away from the other dogs whilst still having focus on you...and this is slowly decreased in increments over time until he has good focus and is less distracted by the other class dogs. He should end up being able to join back in the class eventually.

I wouldn't say that he is altogether unsuitable for a class situation- he is still a puppy- but I agree that perhaps a few private lessons may help out before you take him back to training again. Often when I am conducting private lessons (that's all I teach now) I will bring my own dog in for a small amount of distraction, and both dogs are worked at the same time.

Mel.

[haven]

Can't believe the hide of that trainer! How does she expect you to overcome the issue? Keep up the classes. I'd go with one of two options: Attend as many classes as you can with no expectations on training just to get yur dog over the distraction or train, but stay on the outskirts of the class so he is not quite so distracted. The food thing is so annoying!!! My dog doesn't take food treats away from home and won't play with toys of any sort and I've come across many trainers that either don't believe me or just don't know what to do when that option is unavailable. Needless to say I no longer train with these people. Use what works for you and keep it only for training so the dog is really motivated to work for it. My only option was compulsion training using negative reinforcement to teach commands and positive punishment to enforce them. Unfortunately he doesn't even give a rats about praise, but I still give it to him, of course! Don't worry, if your dog went to puppy school and training at a young age, you haven't missed out on any critical periods.

Edited May 18, 2005 by haven

[Kavik]

I say if your dog works for toys use it!

Is he interested in toys without a squeak? Balls or something soft or a tug? Diesel likes balls and tugs. I bring a tug to class and use it after a string of exercises as a release.

All of my dogs are crazy about food, so I don't have that problem. Diesel is actually the onlly dog I've had that will work for toys - the others would ONLY work for food or praise.

[Guest Tess32]

The trainer sounds inadequate to me. Plenty of dogs are not motivated by food and they can still be trained just as well as food motivated dogs.

Most dogs 12 months and under at pet obedience classes are distracted. Reilly was a horror until he was about 8 months, and then went through a worse period at 10 months. Now he pays attention, but it had nothing to do with how appropriate classes were for him - we just had to keep going. Your poor boy has been restricted for so long, it'll probably take him a good few months to stop being so distracted.

Does he get much dog to dog play now? Any collie friends nearby?

Nat

[fido666]

Thanks for the reply Mel, I have pm-ed you some details.

Cheers,

Corine

[Mel774]

My dog also suffers from only child syndrome and is just dog obsessed. It's his #1 priority in life. He's food motivated, but he's a hell of a lot more dog motivated!!! He seems to behave better if he's had a really good play first, so he's tired and had fun with the other doggies.

I asked Dr Cam Day about this one when I went to his seminar coz Kaden is a total embarrassment at training (especially since all of my past students are in this class and doing beautifully with what I taught them!). He suggested doing the 'circle of commands' exercise to get focus. Doing it for 5 mins, 3 times a day to get him focused on you. Then move it out to a dog park, but well away from the dogs, and gradually bring him closer to the dogs, still playing this game and trying to keep concentration. If it works he can have a play with the dogs as a reward.

I just remembered you're in blue tutor group so you wouldn't have read my outline of the circle of commands. I'll give you a brief description:

-Put dog into sit with food in hand (or squeaky toy). Wait for 2-5seconds, depending how good your dog is.

-Say "GOOD BOY!" or click to let him know he's done well, then throw the food or toy and say "SEEK" or "FIND IT", whichever you prefer.

-The dog goes to get said food or toy and you run away. Then shriek "COME" and make a big fuss when the dog comes back to retrieve more food/toy. Using a toy would be harder because with food, they keep coming back for more.

-Keep this up for 5 mins. You can stop running away after a bit but I like to mix it up. It's a good focus game because they leave you for something good then come straight back. Cam Day showed us how this worked with dogs with behaviour issues of all kinds, a simple task keeping them stress free and focused. Kaden absolutely loves this game but I just haven't had the opportunity to do the gradual thing because when I show up at training I have to get straight to class and then take Kaden in his class when mine is finished.

Try using really high reward food before breakfast like roast chicken, kabana, cheese or liver bits to get him interested. Those chunkers in the supermarket fridge bit did pretty well with the doggies at Delta, but I wouldn't use them all the time, they look soooo fatty!! Apparently it says "no nutritional value" on the bag. My OH didn't read this and bought them as Kaden's food when I was away! Gave him the whole damn bag, he must have been one happy puppy!!!

Let me know how you go with anything you try, Kaden's got this problem baaad!

[fido666]

Thanks everyone, my confidence was completely shot! Sit & look at distance from other dogs have been suggested and I will try this. He responds to toys well, rope toys and balls, as well as praise. They just aren't strong enough distractions in class although they work better about half way through. I should add that he has doggy pals at out local park and is allowed free play with them (slap me now). I guess he just views the dogs at class as more pals. He loves other dogs and people in the park and street but is a little wary of visitors coming into the home (probably because they ring the pesky doorbell 10 times, it's a long house). We have tried clicker training with food, must try clicker training with toys Sorry Nat, no Collies except for him. We want to get him a doggy pal (I would love nothing more) but would that make things worse?

Cheers,

Corine

[Guest Tess32]

Corine if you do want some collie play - I can always bring Reilly to kcc park and him and Duncan could go at it.

Maybe it will get it out of his system.

Nat

[Guest Tess32]

Well since Ebony has arrived Reilly's motivation for work has increased ten fold. I don't know why, but he's very motivated right now.

He's still interested in other dogs though, but he's so tired from playing with Ebony for a few hours that he's calmer in general and that helps.

Nat

[fido666]

Thanks Mel, some good suggestions there.

Nat, surprising how wearing them out calms them down Slightly off-topic but thought you'd like to know Ebony's breeder has an imminent litter (but you probably know this already ).

Cheers,

Corine

[Guest Tess32]

Yes I know, puppy breath ahoy!

Nat

[pgm]

Am I being unreasonable in being annoyed at the trainer over this?

Not in the slightest. The trainer is there to instruct. If s/he cannot instruct you on how to manage the problem then what is the instructor there for?

[fido666]

Hi PGM,

Not in the slightest. The trainer is there to instruct. If s/he cannot instruct you on how to manage the problem then what is the instructor there for?

In fairness to the instructor I should point out that she did make some suggestions (sit & look at distance from other dogs, etc). I guess I was more annoyed that we were out of her sight for most of the class so she missed the good stuff he did do later. I was upset so did not argue the point (no point starting a fight). At least she did not bail me up in front of the rest of the class.

Cheers,

Corine

[dogdayz]

With my weim he had a long absence from classes due to illness among other issues. I continued to work with him in a one on one environment with a new trainer, experimenting with methods to see what would focus him. It was maybe a year before he returned to classes, and for the first few weeks he played up big time just too interested in every dog around. I just perservered through a few unpleasant no progress weeks, and dropped him right back to beginners, and he has now accustomed himself to class life and works well.

As for your boy being a collie, i do believe they dont work well in classes anyway, simply because it bores them so much, making them look for distractions. I have found with skye that she just stopped working in them, and i pulled her out and basically stopped viewing her as an obedience dog. Since then i have just done different activities with her, herding, agility, and i have found her attention to me improved immensely. I returned her to obedience class last week (for other reasons i could not take the weim) and she worked her heart out, even though she had not done an obedience routine in a year. Her old distraction problems were not visible, she showed no inclination to break during free heeling (a previous problem), did her stays without talking etc. Yes she has matured in that year but i believe much is just that she has decided she can have as much fun working with me as running loose with a dog.

I have come to the view that obedience is better left till later in life for a collie, until then they just need the basics enough to do some dog sports. My next collie will definitely not do class obedience young, as i do believe the whole routine of it is too repetitive for them.

If you want to run him with Skye at some point, i am local to KCC. keep looking for a special food dor him, reserve it only for training. Skye has refused clicker training for the last year, then she discovered smoked chicken and will work for it. as for not using a toy in class, i find that odd even the more old fashioned place i take my dogs accept toys, if thats the owners choosing. It can be a bit distracting to othe dogs if its a squeaky is the only issue i see.

As for you getting another dog, the only danger i see, is that you may find you put Duncan aside as too hard, and give your time to the pup. Thats not an insult i found myself doing the same at one point with my dogs.

[poodlefan]

Find another trainer. A "one size fits all" approach to training IMHO demonstrates a lack of experience and/or knowledge.

Its is the trainer's job to help the handler find what motivates the dog and to use that to develop the dog's focus. Some dogs are simply not motivated by food and some handlers simply don't want to use it.

Having toys in class is a class management issue - and it can be done.

Unfortunately, it is the kind of attitude demonstrated by your trainer that gives 'positive motivational trainers' a bad name.

[ninaandted]

you have my great emphathy with this one. I'm sorry I can't contribute anything other than that though and think you've received some great advice so far from everyone (which I'll also be using too!)

Nina has no excuses about being dog motivated!! she has been socialised and has Ted at home to play with, but somehow the ones at class are much more interesting!! she's also difficult to distract with food and would much prefer a ball but then she thinks it's "game on" and that's the end of training!!

our experience with group training was even worse than yours though - the trainer insisted that the only way to cure her of it was to use a check chain and I mean REALLY use it. Check chains may have their place but he put one on her and corrected her really hard before I even knew what he was intending to do! Needless to say I haven't been back... I just don't think that it is the only way - she responds to positives so very well.

[chezzyr]

oh dear. Rosie has just turned 12 months and she hasnt done any formal obed training. We are going to get signed up soon. Of course being an older 'puppy' I guess she will bypass all that puppy pre-school experience so I am not sure what class we will go into or how she will go. I wouldnt be surprised if she gets distracted herself, and not sure if food is going to help. I really want to get her out there with other dogs/noises so I am sure it will be good from that perspective. If theres any food that will get her being a sticky beak and paying attention, its steamed dim sim and roast chicken. But I dont fancy carting those around in my pockets and dont want her getting to used to those treats (they are VERY special treats). She can be ho-hum about other "training" foods.

[fido666]

Hi Chezzyr,

If theres any food that will get her being a sticky beak and paying attention, its steamed dim sim and roast chicken. But I dont fancy carting those around in my pockets and dont want her getting to used to those treats (they are VERY special treats). She can be ho-hum about other "training" foods.

If she is as distracted as my boy you will need the Dim Sims If you find a million dollar food use it as a high value reward for more complex training like recalls. Get yourself a treat pouch (Black Dog ones are good) and line it with a zip lock sandwich bag for the messy stuff. I just haven't found that million dollar food yet . She may be fine in class, she has been around other dogs before you got her. Duncan has been kept away from them for several months so is making up for lost time ;) .

Cheers,

Corine

[chezzyr]

Hi Corine

Yes I do put the ziplock bags in my pocket but the hand usually dives down and comes out yucko She got a real taste for dim sims as I had to resort to that to entice her into the car (or out again). Now she sees me as the dim sim lady when we go for drives. She hasnt got used to the black beast yet so we take her everywhere in the other car (its quieter!)

Anyway....

One of these days us Collie people should congregate at an off lead area. I will be at KCC Park on the 29th May but are people allowed to use the off lead area if theres a show on that day?