Non fading red genes in poodles

[Rufus the Poodle]

A question about red colour in poodles.

Is the age related fading more common in Minature poodles? It seems that the toys hold their colour better as they age?

[Rebanne]

sorry but I can't help. Maybe ask the NSW poodle club? Or the breeder of your dog?

[Mairead]

I wasn't aware there was a fading red. Is it actually apricot not red, and you have assumed it was once red? Reds are a recent development in poodles. Maybe they aren't common in miniatures.

Probably info online somewhere from the serious breeders/genetics nerds not the puppy farmers.

The Malcolm Willis book (old, but the basics haven't changed that much) talks about "light red" being an ee red, so black or dark pigment will not form in the coat despite the dog having the genes (BB or Bb) for it. "Silvery red" is an ee red with GG genes. G for greying, GG and Gg animals will be dark at birth and lighten with age eg Kerry Blue and Bedlington Terriers.

"Red" is not mentioned. Reds sound like they might be an ee red with selection for more rufous polygenes which also explains the difference in intensity of colour between a moggy ginger and a show ginger cat.

 

I love this stuff but ended up with a breed with almost no colour variation, which is as it should be. Don't let colour influence your choice of dog, unless you are selecting away from deleterious colours.

[Dogsfevr]

I would consider the quality of the colour in the lines plays a bigger factor .
Coat change through the ages will potentially vary the colour at the time .
The same applies to a black thats not bred well colour wise & a blue .
In Europe for example Poodles are shown in colour like Schnauzers .Thus the breeding for a good colour is a different to say Australia where colour may be more limited .
In Australia we dont see the Good Black n Silver Schnauzer colouring we did in the 80/90's.
The colour now is often what we call muddy & not marked well.The silver not silver & the black a poor black as often salt & pepper is in the pedigree.
I see so many pups on facebook listed by some breeders as B/S but blind Freddy can see its not a strong B/S especially when the ears have S/P colouring 
Spaying can affect coat texture & colour .
A good apricot colour is far and few these days & especially one with correct coat texture .

Edited October 4 by Dogsfevr

[Mairead]

Did some searching online with mixed results. Most breeders had limited info on genes and genotypes. It seems most poodle colours, with the possible exception of black or white, will change colour over time - get lighter then some will get darker again, or get lighter still.

UV exposure was mentioned as a factor as was health. 

Otherwise it is genetics. The

" I " gene (intensity of colour) was mentioned, as were rufous genes. A Czechia genetics company (Genomia) had red poodles with black noses, lips etc as eeBB or eeBb and red with brown noses etc as eebb, as did as least one breeder.

Simples!

[Pucapo]

Reds, apricot,  brown and cream all fade to some degree. Black also, although sometimes this is just around the face. 

 

I have 2 toy poodles, both were dark red as pups with black points. One is now still a 'good' red,  while the other is closer to cream.

 

Both have a full breed profile with Orivet and the genetic colour make-up for both is the same.

 

Some breeders claim that there pups carry the non fading gene. It's BS.

I think there is testing for a Rufus gene in the US. I don't know much about it. 

If the colour really matters to you, its best to check out sire and dams current coat and see how its changed. That's still only an indication. 

 

I believe the standards hold the red colour better than toys and minis, but since I've never owned one that's not from my experience. 

 

[Mairead]

Maybe keeping depth of colour also depends on depth of knowledge of hair dyes and shampoos.

Edited October 6 by Mairead

[Dogsfevr]

6 hours ago, Mairead said:

Maybe keeping depth of colour also depends on depth of knowledge of hair dyes and shampoos.

Colour shampoos do very little .
Dying a red /apricot Poodle would require an owner who should be voted Best hairdresser in the world .
For other colours its simply a case of looking at pedigrees & seeing what is behind the dog .
Once you start diluting the colours then it can affect it greatly BUT you also shouldnt bred for colour to sacrifice more important things .
Depending on countries Red/Apricots & blue just dont have a good gene pool of stellar dogs that are suitable for breeding or the ability to be bred on with .
In Europe the ability to find a wider gene pool for red/apricots is very strong