Breeds with more health issues

[Amazetl]

What do you think it would take to make some of the more unhealthy dog breeds healthier?

 

I know there are some breeders trying to bring healthier breeds into the mix but it isn’t recognised. Would that even work? What are your thoughts on the topic?

 

What do you think of those who are selling mixed dog breeds such as the Bernese Mountain Dog mixed with poodle to create ‘hybrid vigour’? Is it even real or just marketing? Probably they are more in it for the money but what about the idea of creating some healthier lines? Or is it better to just focus on pure bred dogs who already show living longer and healthier and breed only them? Same with breeds with breathing issues etc? 

[Dogsfevr]

The Bernerdoodles are riddled with HD .
The Bernese breeders who are in it for the breed have done the blood,sweat & tears of dealing with cancer & finally reaching a point where longevity is winning & breeding smartly from their with tests becoming available to assist .
Dont fool yourself very few health test as decent stock isnt sold to them .
Its a tragic outcome 

You dont cross X with Y and wipe the slate clean if it was that simple it would have been done years ago .
Crossing for actual improvement purpose should be at even higher standards & that magic wand doesnt exist but it should still come with a standard of why X & Y should be put together understanding both breeds,the health testing looking at what health issues could be added or even made worse 

[Amazetl]

Interesting and what I already thought, thanks. I do wonder where they get their breeding stock? Have they lied and just gotten a dog from a breeder and use them I bet without paying everything to do all appropriate tests. It’s concerning. What if the dog was tested though and healthy?

 

I know it’s not so simple but my mind goes to crossing smaller dogs with a healthy breed like the Jack Russel then crossing them back to their original breed and continuing to do that until you’re back to the standard but with a mix in there and larger breeds something like with the Border Collie. I know it’s probably silly though. There are just so many breeds I love that seem to have health issues but I’m glad to hear that with Berners being healthier on average now. 

[Deeds]

Some years ago there were some Giant Schnauzers crossed with Irish Wolfhounds.  There was a lot of epilespy  and cluster seizures in the dogs.

 

As Dogsfevr said it's a tragic outcome .  And that applies to the dogs and the owners.

 

 

[sandgrubber]

This is a Pedigree dog group, and not friendly to cross breeding.

I doubt you will find anything but anecdote evidence to your question (anywhere), and reality is likely to be all over the map.  For example, puggles (pug x beagle) may less brachy and less unhealthy than pugs, while attempts to breed out cancer proneness may not be successful.  Seems likely that breeding giant breeds to smaller breeds will eliminate some of the structural and other problems common to the giants.

 

Second generation crosses will be more variable than first generation.  Careful crossing over many generations, as in the creation of the Cobber dog from selection among labradoodles, will probably have better results than indiscriminate crossing to meet market demand.

[tdierikx]

I'd be leery of anyone saying they are crossbreeding for "hybrid vigour"... run a mile from anyone using that term to describe their animals for sale.

 

I'm with @sandgrubberre the Cobber Dog example.

 

T.

[moosmum]

Hybrid vigor is a real thing. Its effects are only in 1st crosses, not subsequent mates  and won't help much if both are carriers or positive for the same issues. Many genetic ailments  these days are found across multiple  breeds so health testing would still be required. That was not always the case,  more so as time passes with out addressing the issues effectively.   I see no reason why it should be discouraged.

The poor results in examples cited are not simply because they are cross breeds, more that the pure breeds used were not effectively screened for those faults.

You can not with hold quality health screened pure breeds, then condemn breeders for not using them. 

A good example of crying  'Irresponsible!'  while the ability to respond any better is withheld.

I do agree with both @sandgrubber and @tdierikx though, that 'hybrid vigor' is not a cure for most genetic conditions with out proper health screening.

it can be of great use though to reclaim traits lost, give new ones, modify extremes,   increase diversity or modes of  inheritance for those maybe tied to faults in one breed, but maybe not in another.

 

 

Edited January 10 by moosmum

[cannibalgoldfish]

I'm wary of anyone crossing anything with poodles. Poodles are not some kind of super breed that magically cancels out any other breeds health issues. People breed poodles for the "oodle" name because it's "funny" 

 

Actually I'm wary of any cross breed that uses a cute combined breed name... 

[Rebanne]

4 hours ago, Amazetl said:

Interesting and what I already thought, thanks. I do wonder where they get their breeding stock? Have they lied and just gotten a dog from a breeder and use them I bet without paying everything to do all appropriate tests. It’s concerning. What if the dog was tested though and healthy?

 

I know it’s not so simple but my mind goes to crossing smaller dogs with a healthy breed like the Jack Russel then crossing them back to their original breed and continuing to do that until you’re back to the standard but with a mix in there and larger breeds something like with the Border Collie. I know it’s probably silly though. There are just so many breeds I love that seem to have health issues but I’m glad to hear that with Berners being healthier on average now. 

Border Collies have 3 fatal issues I believe that need to be tested for. Do Jack Russel's have luxating patellas? I do think people should be encouraged to breed to older studs/semen. If a stud dog gets to 10 or 12 with no issues then that's a healthy dog IMO. Of course health tested for whatever is in the breed. Even bitches. In Greyhounds there is a lot of girls bred 8 years and up. Maidens as well.

[_PL_]

Unpopular opinion, but the standards by which dogs are judged in the ring needs to change radically. The ANKC could be the leader in amending some of the shockingly exaggerated features and structural faults that e.g. brachy and dachshund are suffering from. 

On from that thought, it would have a trickle-down effect to the wider population of pet dogs being bred. They could in theory, be be less susceptible breathing problems or IVDD etc. 

I haven't the foggiest idea of where to start with the poor Cavalier but hybrid vigour definitely hasn't helped the Cavoodle.    

  
 

[Diva]

I agree with selecting away from physical extremes that harm health, and changing the show emphasis on those extremes. It’s already happening and has for a while, but in a patchy way. I also agree with Rebanne about breeding to older dogs, especially in breeds where issues aren’t testable. Arbitrary breeding regs work against that. 
 

I don’t think selecting for less extreme types will trickle down to the wider population of pet dogs being bred though.   Not anymore. Just take a look at the extreme Bully industry. Plenty of pet dog breeders have embraced unhealthy extremes and are not influenced by the traditional  show world - they just call them elitist snobs and get social media applause for it.  Double Merle long coat teacup Frenchie anyone? They are so ‘special’. 

 

But back to the purebred world, I would like to see more education for show breeders on how to manage genetic diversity and how to best use current science to improve population health - need some genetics educators that can look holistically at all issues and opportunities, not just test by test.
 

However that kind of knowledge brokering needs resources, and the purebred world as a collective, at least in Australia, doesn’t have the kind of money people assume it does. 
 

 

Edited January 11 by Diva

[sandgrubber]

43 minutes ago, Diva said:

But back to the purebred world, I would like to see more education for show breeders on how to manage genetic diversity and how to best use current science to improve population health - need some genetics educators that can look holistically at all issues and opportunities, not just test by test.

Tests are available for heterozygosity, Ie, the genetic consequences of inbreeding, and for preserving heterozygosity when planning a mating.   Has any club ever recommend these?

[Diva]

I can’t answer the club question from an Australian perspective - the breeds that interest me are too numerically small, so are the clubs and they don’t have that kind of capacity. A question for the bigger players. I don’t think a test for heterozygosity is an answer in itself though. How to best use the diversity within a breed is a bigger question than that. 

Some US breeders did get together to get a population genetic diversity study done for my breed- through UC Davis and Better Bred. It found a healthy breed despite - or maybe because of?-  limited haplotype diversity, including as I recall some unique in their database at the time.

 

The first report was disappointingly poor to me - suggested that Australia had a genetically distinct population. Based on my dogs. Which at the time were mostly direct  Scandi and USA imports. No-one checked their origins with me before writing that significant conclusion. It affected my personal view of the credibility of the study.  Final report a bit better but still felt detached from the coal face.  

I don’t think the study has been used much if at all to influence breeding decisions. I still test. I no longer subscribe to Better Bred, not worth it for me, but I did run the numbers on potential matings before dropping it, and I might join again to use the program at some point. But my experience with that study is partly why I think a lot more science interpretation is needed for real impact.
 

For context, I have a science degree and a lifetime of working in the public policy:science interface. Pathways to influence and end user adoption are issues in many public good type areas where there are lots of small actors. It is a skill in itself. Not unique to the dog world. 

Edited January 11 by Diva

[Dogsfevr]

5 hours ago, Diva said:

 

 

 

But back to the purebred world, I would like to see more education for show breeders on how to manage genetic diversity and how to best use current science to improve population health - need some genetics educators that can look holistically at all issues and opportunities, not just test by test.

 

 

Well you could start with the AVA who are bringing in laws on what means of AI can be done & that in turn means semen from the 80/90 & 00 being flushed down the loo so there goes a whole lot of valuable & irreplaceable genetic diversity 

[Diva]

3 hours ago, Dogsfevr said:

Well you could start with the AVA who are bringing in laws on what means of AI can be done & that in turn means semen from the 80/90 & 00 being flushed down the loo so there goes a whole lot of valuable & irreplaceable genetic diversity 

Well I’m not really ‘starting’ with anyone. Just expressing some thoughts as the thread asked.  
I didn’t know that transcervical can’t be done with older semen but it is heartbreaking if so. That genetic material is so precious. 

Edited January 11 by Diva

[_PL_]

22 hours ago, Dogsfevr said:

Well you could start with the AVA who are bringing in laws on what means of AI can be done & that in turn means semen from the 80/90 & 00 being flushed down the loo so there goes a whole lot of valuable & irreplaceable genetic diversity 

I don't know a thing about AI. Could you explain what the AVA are doing and the logic if any?  

[tdierikx]

27 minutes ago, Powerlegs said:

I don't know a thing about AI. Could you explain what the AVA are doing and the logic if any?  

 

They appear to have capitulated to the animal rights mob and are stopping surgical AI procedures. The animal rights mob reckons that performing reasonably minimally intrusive surgery to enable procreation is "inhumane"... whereas performing a complete hysterectomy on a very young puppy or kitten is perfectly "reasonable"... go figure!

 

T.

[_PL_]

1 hour ago, tdierikx said:

 

They appear to have capitulated to the animal rights mob and are stopping surgical AI procedures. The animal rights mob reckons that performing reasonably minimally intrusive surgery to enable procreation is "inhumane"... whereas performing a complete hysterectomy on a very young puppy or kitten is perfectly "reasonable"... go figure!

 

T.

Ohhh that makes sense!

One prominent AR person had a clip on FB describing AI with cattle as bestiality. 

[Dogsfevr]

Surgical artificial insemination in dogs (ava.com.au)

They only want TCI performed & many vets from this July will be ceasing AI .
Many breeders have had to start making decisions on what to do with stored stuff & the loss is just beyond common sense from the AVA ,

TCI semen quality needs to be different to AI so for many who have stored semen or have low count semen the options & loss of valuable lines & diversity is being thrown out the window .
There reasons listed are ridiculous & how they have implied to the public scare mongering .

TCI best success rate is with over 200million.Some have had TCI success under that but the risk of failure is higher which is why having the option in the right circumstances important.
Obviously breeders if they fail a go with a TCI will try an AI the next time as some bitches do better with it positioned .
Its a really scary time for those who are just pondering what route to take .
A friend has semen that is poor quality it has resulted in a miss,1 pup & 1 pup  but the pups from AI
There is 1 breeding left & this person is the only person in the world with semen from that international dog left 
If their not AVA members all should be good for awhile or the very least they need to perform more TCI than AI .
I now a few had issues with pyo after TCI but never with AI .
Most will claim if the implanter is well trained then their is no drama .
TCI is used more in Europe but by the same token the way Europe is heading for many things thats nothing to get excited over.
 

Edited January 13 by Dogsfevr

[asal]

On 11/01/2024 at 11:21 AM, sandgrubber said:

Tests are available for heterozygosity, Ie, the genetic consequences of inbreeding, and for preserving heterozygosity when planning a mating.   Has any club ever recommend these?

 

 

the problem with selecting for heterozygosity solely is no guarantee that it doesn't carry one copy of the gene or genes u dont want?

 

its not that simple

 

two heterozygote carriers can produce 25% affected progeny

 

two homozygous clear for example can never produce affected progeny.

 

so many vets scream INBRED when any defective pup turns up even when there is no common ancestors in the parents?

 

Their ignorance of genetics  is appalling,. although as Richard pointed out, "genetics isn't a topic studied" as it has no application in veterinary medicine, "the curriculum is so big already they graduate with the basics, then continue learning at your expense"

Edited January 16 by asal