Wire Haired Fox Terrier Breed Population Dwindling at Risk of Extinction

[Deeds]

https://www.9news.com.au/national/wire-fox-terrier-breed-population-dwindling-at-risk-of-extinction/5adcf768-f643-49c3-86bb-1cce7e39f862

[Princess Fru Fru]

This isn't specific to the WFT but also to many of the "unpopular" breeds. In fact, Dogs Australia puppy registration statistics indicates the number of pedigree WFT to be reasonably consistent at between 45-50 puppies over the past 20 years.

 

The fact of the matter is that the majority of Dogs Australia breeders simply aren't churning out puppies at the volumes and frequency of the oodle/designer breeders and their numbers just far outweigh those of the pedigree world.

 

Dog breeding has changed vastly over the past 2-3 decades. Where breeding was once only done by the enthusiasts making it far more illustrious , now every Tom, D*ck and Harry and their mates up the street are involved.

 

The Kennel Club - Vulnerable Breeds

 

Dogs Australia - Breed Registrations

[Adrienne]

Perhaps breeders of Registered Pure bred dogs could be less invested in being "Illustrious" and elite and get in behind their breeds as great candidates as family pets (if the breed is actually great family pet material - some are not) and so increase the number of them available through the year. The whole, "I breed only what I need for show" is supposedly the only ethical stance a breeder can take which is nonsense and a great shame. People want pet dogs.  I believe best practice in managing the breeding of a bitch is breed young, back to back and then retire early. 

 

Some breeders will reckon that even a repeat mating is superfluous and unethical - if the progeny were great, what's wrong with repeating for the purpose of supply to pet buyers? If you want your breed to be more popular they need to be available, be seen in the community being great pets. They need to be out in homes where they are loved and promoted by their families to anyone who will listen... and lets face it today everyone is talking up their pet dogs across all sorts of channels.

 

I really think one of the reasons hybrids are popular is because they are easy to buy.  Easy to buy does not mean sell to anyone, it means there are enough to go into ready willing and able homes. 

 

As well, it might be helpful to point out "endangered" means in the Registered Show Sphere, and that population is not the be all and end all for some breeds - there are pure bred dogs outside of that world.

 

 

[tdierikx]

16 hours ago, Adrienne said:

If you want your breed to be more popular they need to be available, be seen in the community being great pets. They need to be out in homes where they are loved and promoted by their families to anyone who will listen... and lets face it today everyone is talking up their pet dogs across all sorts of channels.

 

Well said @Adrienne- very good point!

 

T.

[Papillon Kisses]

This may not be a factor with the wire fox terrier, for all I know they might be fabulous in this regard, but I don’t think one should complain about unethical breeders, purpose bred crosses or the people buying these dogs if you’re not prepared to support newcomers.

[coneye]

Well   I can see it happenning  to a lot more breeds , ,   years ago  i bought my  dogs from breeders , i did'nt want to show or breed , just wanted a certain breed and that was the way of ensuring i got a breed with the traits  what i wanted  . BUT it was my dog  , i went along i looked  at the kennels , looked at the dog and looked at the breeder , checked it all out , i suppose the breeders also looked at me  see if i was suitable , i handed over cash  they handed over the dog , i also   got given there papers , and whats more i expected them , after all  i was paying for a pedigree i wanted to make sure i got what i paid for a pedigree dog with  a checkable  background / breeding , furthermore , once the deal was done it was my dog to do what i want with ,  if i wanted to show it part time i could , if i wanted to breed it with my mates  dog i could . I never did  show  any dog ,  but ONCE i did breed my rottie with  someone elses ,  because i wanted   a pup and i wanted one of his pups  i got pick of the litter .  The other person , kept two herself  and  done well with them in the showring

 

Fast forward 20 years and    theres definetly a snobbery about  , breeders with this mains and  non mains rubbish  , are just killing there own industry ,  thers NO WAY  would i pay out thousands of dollars and be told i have to de sex my dog  certain dogs i would'nt even look at  i'll be specific ,  GSD , no way would i buy one    most are scrawny hunchbacks that look deformed , thats had all the good traits bred out of them , now others like the WFT  may still have there traits but   where you gonna get one , how much is it going to cost  has stated above  , the breeder  has a waiting list of 40 people , and charges $5000 , BET YOU  A PENNY TO A POUND , THAT THERE NOT ON MAINS REGISTRAR , AND  need to be desexed , after all   with    that sort of waiting list why would you want competition . .

 

My last two dogs have been  one from a young girl who had to  get rid of her  10 month old stumpy tail , due to moving house ,  i took him  the day before he was going to be put down   , she could'nt find a home for him , my son has him  , he's 10 now  and still a great dog , and the present one from the pound  over 7 years ago .  would'nt mind another dog a bigger one  , that can come out with me  fishing and    camping ect   , but each time i've gone out to buy one i changed my mind when told ,      what i  can and can't do with my dog  , . Granted   some breeders are  ethical and just want to do the right thing , but i believe most are just protecting there  side income source ,

[tdierikx]

Well... if we are worried about the restrictions to sourcing a well-bred pedigree dog (or cat) into the future, we need to be a LOT more proactive politically. There is a trend of ever-increasingly restrictive legislation being introduced all over the country which will see ALL breeding of dogs and cats heavily restricted. Those doing the right thing are already legislated to the back teeth right now, and are regularly targetted by animal welfare enforcement authorities because they are easy targets in that regard. Meanwhile the essentially underground supply of backyard bred pets is harder to police, and is actually the root of most of the issues with overflowing pounds and rescues. Governments are looking to mandate desexing of all pets not registered for breeding - and licenses will be required for EVERY breeding of ANY dog (or cat) - with those licenses being hard to get approved due to how they are being legislated. The backyard breeders will carry on as normal however, as they aren't really easy to address with legislative methods.

 

T.

[Adrienne]

5 hours ago, tdierikx said:

Governments are looking to mandate desexing of all pets not registered for breeding -

I just don't see this happening. It is impossible to enforce and there is no support from those credentialed and truly in the know.

 

Also,

There are legitimate reasons for keeping an animal whole other than for breeding.

Our animals are our personal property. 

There can be negative outcomes of early desexing for individual animals and the people that own them. 

Can't think of a more devastating measure to narrow the gene pool and limit the availability of any pure breed of dog than to sterilise the vast majority of a population.

 

The problem of over supply of the wrong type of dog is pretty obvious... the pounds and rescues are full of them - the RSPCA and Rescues seem to exist to simply take the load off those BASTARD breeders who don't give a hoot for the pups they cause to be born. Free desexing for anyone who wants it would go a long way in this space me thinks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Princess Fru Fru]

On 25/11/2023 at 1:19 PM, Adrienne said:

The whole, "I breed only what I need for show" is supposedly the only ethical stance a breeder can take which is nonsense and a great shame. People want pet dogs.

I absolutely agree with you.  The pedigree world still sees breeding for the pet market as a bad thing and this mentality really needs to shift.  It's like breeders are saying that families are undeserving of quality dogs whereas I think "what's wrong with a pet home wanting a well-bred, quality <insert breed>?"

 

I believe the biggest issue is fighting the fixed mindset of the board of directors and breeders who refuse to acknowledge that times have changed and sadly, we're seeing the likes of Dogs Australia being left behind.  There's a distinct unwillingness to change and progress and I don't know if this comes from the fact that the age of the current BOD seems to average approximately 70 years old so they're set in their ways, but I do know from many dog show groups, there's also much commentary on how the younger generation is coming in thinking they know everything, which has their backs up.

 

On 25/11/2023 at 1:19 PM, Adrienne said:

If you want your breed to be more popular they need to be available, be seen in the community being great pets. They need to be out in homes where they are loved and promoted by their families to anyone who will listen... and lets face it today everyone is talking up their pet dogs across all sorts of channels.

This is easier said than done.  I always have my dogs out and about in the community and at events such as the Dog Lover's Show and Pet Expo, however, there is fewer than 10 breeders Australia-wide (and smallish numbers worldwide too) so whilst yes, I do drum up a massive interest and do all I can to promote my breed, there's still going to be limitations on what people can buy.  My breed also only has small litters (~4 puppies), so the wait-list is astronomical and pet people are generally only willing to wait so long.

 

 

On 25/11/2023 at 1:19 PM, Adrienne said:

As well, it might be helpful to point out "endangered" means in the Registered Show Sphere, and that population is not the be all and end all for some breeds - there are pure bred dogs outside of that world.

This is true to a point because there are breeds numerically on the decline regardless of whether they're kennel club registered or not.  There is simply not enough up-coming interest within some breeds that once the current breeders die, there's no one to take over.  I've seen many lines of dogs become extinct once a breeder has died, and it leaves me shaking my head in wonder that these breeders have spent their entire life dedicated to their dogs, only for their legacy to end with their death.

 

Why did they work so hard for their breed to leave it die out with them? Seems like a pointless exercise really.

 

 

On 29/11/2023 at 7:33 AM, coneye said:

the breeder  has a waiting list of 40 people , and charges $5000 , BET YOU  A PENNY TO A POUND , THAT THERE NOT ON MAINS REGISTRAR

The average Joe doesn't care for main or limited register though because the piece of paper is literally worth nothing unless you're wanting to compete in conformation.

 

Having said that, I do disagree with the blatant abuse of the limited register by most breeders.  The LR was introduced purely to register any puppies/dogs that do not meet their breed standard e.g. non-standard colours, affected by certain diseases etc.  It wasn't introduced as a way for breeders to monopolise on their "show quality" puppies and effectively keep people out of the show ring.

 

One of my own dogs was sold correctly and how I'd expect a non-show dog to be sold to a pet home.  She came on main register with the "not for breeding" section on the back completed.  This allowed me to have a go in the show ring if wanted but she also came with a "not for breeding" clause.  I had no interest in showing her and she was purchased as a pet and sporting dog anyway but there was absolutely no reason for her to be sold on limited.

 

Additionally, if breeders think a mere piece of paper (limited register) will stop someone breeding with their dog, they're absolutely delusional.

 

 

On 29/11/2023 at 7:33 AM, coneye said:

I never did  show  any dog ,  but ONCE i did breed my rottie with  someone elses ,  because i wanted   a pup and i wanted one of his pups

What health testing was done on both dogs prior to the mating or did you just hope for the best?  This is why breeders put desexing contracts in place in an attempt to prevent irresponsible breeding like this.

 

Sure, you might've been lucky and the pups were fine, but it's a completely unnecessary risk to take by not health testing dogs prior to breeding, especially in breeds with known health issues.

 

Wires have a horrible recessive disease which has considerably shrunken their gene pool.  Carriers can only be mated to clear and many breeding wires that I know of are mostly carriers and with numbers so small and importing very costly, litters are scarce. And yes, a carrier x carrier mating could produce unaffected puppies, but it's not worth the risk and most breeders wouldn't even consider this mating an option.

[tdierikx]

@Adrienne- it IS already law in WA... ALL non-breeding dogs MUST be desexed by 2 years of age... at least they've not mandated early age desexing like other states are proposing... *sigh*

 

 

There is also very strict (and expensive) legislation (and currently proposed regulations) relating to those who wish to keep an entire dog - only restricted to licensed breeders (so attract a licensing fee), or to those with veterinary signed documents stating that desexing is not recommended for individual dogs.

 

Link to the current WA legislation here... https://www.legislation.wa.gov.au/legislation/statutes.nsf/law_a147325.html

 

Link to the recently closed consultation relating to the regulations that will accompany the above legislation... https://www.dlgsc.wa.gov.au/local-government/community/cats-and-dogs/stop-puppy-farming

 

Victoria is currently in the process of drafting their new "Animal Care and Protection" laws (note that "animal welfare" is not in the title of the proposed Act) - essentially redrafting virtually ALL animal welfare legislation from it's current state into one compendium Act. Some interesting reading here... https://engage.vic.gov.au/new-animal-welfare-act-victoria - have a read of the submissions, some are quite eye-opening, and a large number of them have been cut/pasted from an Animal Justice Party callout for followers to make submissions, complete with what to include in those submissions. This is "community expectations" at work in it's very worst form, and gives disproportionate credence to the vocal minority with regards to these matters. This whole redraft is contingent upon recognising animal sentience, but it does not specify what their interpretation of "sentience" is, as it does not define the term at all.

 

The NSW Labor government is also looking to "reform" current animal welfare legislation into a similar compendium as Victoria, but may leave a couple of the current Acts in place (like research legislation and other single themed legislation) - and there WILL be a "stop puppy farming" element to their new legislation proposal when it finally gets released for consultation.

 

SA has the following in it's legislation (Dog and Cat Management Regulations 2017)...

 

 

... and you can bet that other states/territories have or will propose similar desexing mandates in due course.

 

Just a bit of light reading there... errr!

 

T.

[asal]

"The whole, "I breed only what I need for show" is supposedly the only ethical stance a breeder can take which is nonsense and a great shame.

People want a pet, once they could buy a pedigree pet AND it came with main papers. Originally breeders welcomed new members A few went on to become members and continue the breed.  Not to today.  

 

The mental midgets populating DogsNSW have been parroting that since 1990's as the only way to proved your "ethical" and "responsible"  the perfect dead end kennel.

 

the other is "no ethical, responsible breeder breeds to supply pets"

 

So what else can you expect but the self destruction of the ankc and actually any register  whose members strive to be "ethical  and responsible" unto extinction.

 

frankly

without the untracable backyarders the breeds will become extinct.

 

Peta hasn't fractured them in when they boasted they expect their ever restrictive legislations will "achieve the extinction of the domestic dog and cat within this generation"

 

Remember, now many decades now has it been law that all puppies and kittens must be microchipped before going to their new homes?

 

 

How many pounds and rescues report over half all surrenders HAVE NO MICROCHIP?

 

I rest my case.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by asal

[asal]

6 hours ago, Princess Fru Fru said:

I

 

Wires have a horrible recessive disease which has considerably shrunken their gene pool.  Carriers can only be mated to clear and many breeding wires that I know of are mostly carriers and with numbers so small and importing very costly, litters are scarce. And yes, a carrier x carrier mating could produce unaffected puppies, but it's not worth the risk and most breeders wouldn't even consider this mating an option.

 

 

before the days of dna profiling that is the exactly what breeders have always had to deal with.

 

a few years ago I accidently put two carriers together.  only after the puppies were born did I realise the error.

in panic I had the entire litter profiles and to my amazement every puppy was completely clear????  the odds of being clear? 25%.

 

 

yet Hawkesbury Ag college used a stallion the breeder had guaranteed all their horses were scids clear.   They bred 16 of their mares to him and when all 16 were born it was discovered every single one of the 16 HAD INHERITED TWO COPIES were SCIDS and doomed to die. (SCIDS is the defect that two copies created the BOY IN THE PLASTIC BUBBLE)  AGAIN each conception of two carriers the percentages were 25% clear, 50% carrier, 25% SCIDS and will die.   The trouble is, every conception is a new throw of the dice. can come up all sixes or all 1's 

 

the facts are even in the case of there being no test for lethals the deaths of the lethals and the survivers being on average clears and carriers in the case of the arabian horse when the marker was found only 13% of the population were actually carriers.   does your head in really

[coneye]

20 hours ago, Princess Fru Fru said:

On 29/11/2023 at 7:03 AM, coneye said:

I never did  show  any dog ,  but ONCE i did breed my rottie with  someone elses ,  because i wanted   a pup and i wanted one of his pups

What health testing was done on both dogs prior to the mating or did you just hope for the best?  This is why breeders put desexing contracts in place in an attempt to prevent irresponsible breeding like this.

 

Sure, you might've been lucky and the pups were fine, but it's a completely unnecessary risk to take by not health testing dogs prior to breeding, especially in breeds with known health issues.

 

Wires have a horrible recessive disease which has considerably shrunken their gene pool.  Carriers can only be mated to clear and many breeding wires that I know of are mostly carriers and with numbers so small and importing very costly, litters are scarce. And yes, a carrier x carrier mating could produce unaffected puppies, but it's not worth th

 

 Well it was over 25 years ago , and i'm guilty has charged , was extensive testing done , NO but mine was a very healthy well mannered  great dog , which is why i wanted a pup of him , the girl he was mated with was the same , my vet  at  the time  knew both dogs and said it was a great match they should have good pups which they did .  they were mated ,  i picked a fantastic pup .  they kept 2 pups and sold the rest  , getting enough money to  pay for  all expenses , they were actually sold quite cheap at the time , the 2 dogs they kept  went on to win shows , , and do well in the  showing buisness ,  everyone who was lucky enough to get one  of these pups were freinds , who admired both dogs ,  They were not bred for money or profit  but for temprement  and looks and it was agreat success . .

However i can understand the need for testing , ESPECIELLY when dogs are  not part of the familly  and kept in pens in a yard   just  meeting there breeder / owners a  hour or so a day  , BUT would i believe them Not a chance in hell ,,  i've watched the GSD go down  and be ruined  , turned into a  hunchback looking deformed dog with non of the GSD temptrement that rin tin tin ,  and co are famous for ,,, i visited a kennells with labradors  the other week ,  actually it was to buy something they were selling and when i got there  they had about a dozen dogs all in  kennells and each with a big run , i spent time looking at them and asked the price  told between 5 and $6500   , depending which dog ,, they all looked like very poor examples of a lab , small skinny ,    shy and timid , .

 

Do i really believe this breeder spends on testing , not on your life , still i was guilty has charged , whats mor   my sons dog a heeler is such a great dog but getting old now , and we have often said its a shame that he's been desexed , because if he was'nt  we would both want one of his pups  for sure ,   but i know for a fact   he was desexed young because it was part of the sales agreement the young girl who bought him  had to do ,  suppose that breeder   could of been   thinking  she was  protecting the breed i thnk she was protecting her part time income source

[Mairead]

Hmm. The "he's a nice dog he should be bred" myth. He might be the only, or one of only a few, nice dogs in his family. And then there's the breeding partner and their family.

When people have said "he's a nice dog ..." to me, I explain it this way:

The dog you know and love is but one hand of cards in a very big deck. His relatives will show you what other cards are in the pack but when you breed you are shuffling those cards and hoping you only get the good ones.

I tell them to go back to the breeder of their dog if they want another one like him.

[Adrienne]

It's pretty simple to gain approval to breed in your LGA - even after puppies are born! It does sound very draconian but if people do basic things like register their dogs and apply for a BIN number and keep basic records, sell your pups chipped etc there doesn't seem to be anything to worry about really. It's just forms people! If you are transparent with authorities, transparent with your qualified buyers/adopters and providing good conditions and lifestyles for your animals there is no great burden there as far as I can see. 

 

As for mandatory desexing - again, there are pathways for preserving your animal whole if it's important to you.  

 

I don't agree with this type of legislation though. I can't see it preventing unwanted puppies being born - in fact I wonder what types of "solutions" it will force owners of unwanted puppies to come up with on their own to avoid a whopping $5,000 fine because their bitch has had an unregulated litter.... might be back to the days of "bag em' and chuck 'em in the creek!". 

 

I am sure  legislation like this is not going to capture puppy farmers who are very focused and know the exact letter of the law in order to stay on the right side of it. 

 

Hands down the most powerful phenomena would be ETHICAL BUYERS.

 

RE: some breeds going extinct - why aren't breeders of these breeds outcrossing and breeding back to purebred to strengthen the genetic diversity available? This  would only take a concerted effort for a few years. Sorry, maybe some are. Is this the sort of thing the MDBA is involved with? 

 

[Mairead]

@coneye that breeder talks about importing dogs and semen - that soon uses up the $ so let her charge whatever she wants. That she has a waiting list is a very good sign - there are still some people who can pass the marshmallow test which is about delaying instant gratification.

@Adrienne Which breeds need crossbreeding apart from the Dalmatian? Breeds may be rare in some countries and not in others (a Sealyham just won Best in Show at a Thanksgiving show  and Flatcoat imports are often from Sweden). A look at the Breed Index dog profiles pedigrees often shows imports and AI in the less popular breeds.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Mairead
accuracy

[coneye]

1 hour ago, Mairead said:

@coneye that breeder talks about importing dogs and semen - that soon uses up the $ so let her charge whatever she wants. That she has a waiting list is a very good sign - there are still some people who can pass the marshmallow test which is about delaying instant gratification.

@Adrienne Which breeds need crossbreeding apart from the Dalmatian? Breeds may be rare in some countries and not in others (a Sealyham just won Best in Show at a Thanksgiving show  and Flatcoat imports are often from Sweden). A look at the Breed Index dog profiles pedigrees often shows imports and AI in the less popular breeds.

 

 I do not have a problem with this breeder or ANY breeder  having a waiting list and asking top dollar , no problem at all , whats more to an extent i can understand the  not for breeding clauses  they may have , WHY  well the answer is simple if this or any other breeder is willing to import  , dogs or seman at huge costs , they are entitled to get rewards  for it  no one can begrudge them and why should they pay out  just to let someone else come along and profit from there  expense , no thats all fair , but it must be relative  to the charge , 

Now i personaly  rightly or wrongly  do think a dogs looks are important , show me a scraggy looking shepard with a  long thin snout  big hunchback  on the virge of dragging its back  legs  and i'll show you a dog i could , would never own  , show me a big strong ,  good looking one and  i would want to own it , .regards these dogs i  like the look of them , and too be honest , i don't but  if i did  want one   i would probably do my homework and  end up has customer  num 41 on the list , with the expectation the dog if ever i get one is going to cost me a fortune , BUT and theres always a BUT i would feel the dog is mine and if i want to breed or show it , there should be NO RESTRICTIONS  and like i said relative to the charge , if said breeder said look i sell mine  for $10.000   it costs a fortune to do what i do , and i want to recoup money , fair enough  but   you should not be restricted from  recouping your money ,  if said breeder said  look  this ones not show quality  , bit of a runt really but a lovely dog ,  so you can have him has a pet for  say $4000   thats fair enough  after all not everyone wants to  show or breed , thats excatly how i bought my shepard  years ago he was long haired and i believe at the time it failed him from showing , but who cared   he was what i wanted , big strong and good looking , i paid at the time  $500  for him  but her other show dogs were all going for around $1000 , i also got papers for him  , they just got stuck in the draw and brought out occasionaly to show and brag what a good pedigree he had  , he was the perfect dog   lived till 18 has well

 

But i'm not silly if i want  to own  the offspring of this years  winning dog at the crufts show , i would be willing to pay through the nose , likewise , if i wanted to own what i consider nice looking shepards , and went to purchase  one from someone who imports  german working dog lines  i would expect to pay top dollar , i actually have in the past  and been very happy too ,   just like my car , my boat, my motorbikes ,  they have all been purchased because i like the look , dogs are no exception  , , but i do have an issue with people who    grab any two dogs put them together and breed  ugly  dogs with no  traits of there breed  and then have the cheek to charge massive amounts and put restrictions  on what you do with your dog , and use the responsible breeder rubbish has an excuse to do so ,

 

But people / breeders  whoever cannot complain dog lines are dieing then place restrictions on them being bred ,  and its only the bad  . cheap breeders who will  suffer the quality dogs will always sell .  

 

 

[Adrienne]

2 hours ago, Mairead said:

 Which breeds need crossbreeding apart from the Dalmatian?

Yes, I don't know. Breeds becoming genetically unsustainable or disappearing is just something that gets mentioned quite a bit when talking about pure breeds... and it seems to me that the breeders of those breeds which are labelled as endangered or whatnot could perhaps be more proactive in doing something about it?  If there is a problem with any breed surely the AKNC and  breeders are the ones to fix it? Just saying....

 

[sandgrubber]

I don't see the problem.   Breeds should come and go. 

[coneye]

Think you will find the more time goes on the more they will , especielly in Aust , ,and it will not be through lack of money to buy them , the oodle outbreak has shown that people are willing to pay through the nose for a dog they want , I went to pick my dog up yesterday from his  every 6 week haircut and while waiting was looking at all the dogs there in the doggy day care , Ooodles outnumbered every thing probably 4 to 1 , my daily walk or morning fishing trip to the dog beach i see dozens of them  very very rarely see a doberman or a rotty  , anymore , , I know  breeds do the circle in popularity , but    i think breeders are  not helping themselves with the ltd  registar stuff