Desexing contract

[Sunflower28]

Hi all!
I’m buying a puppy soon and I have some questions about the desexing contract.
The breeder is a registered ANKC and I’m getting my baby at 10 weeks old as the breeder stated they like to keep their puppies for longer. (I’m not sure if this is normal?)

 

On the desexing contract it states I will not get the pedigree papers or change of ownership until I provide proof of desexing by the age of 12 months. 
 

My question is - are these normal requirements?

 

 

 

The contract states the following: 

 

“Once proof of desexing has been provided the breeder will forward pedigree papers and change of owner ship to purchasers nominated mailing address.”

 

 

Thank you for the help and advice in advance, I appreciate it! 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sunflower28
I can pay cash so my other question is answered (I will get a receipt signed for this so I have proof)

[Rebanne]

Depending on the breed yeah a lot of breeders of smaller dogs prefer to keep them a little bit longer.

 

If they are ANKC breeders then the papers are supposed to go with the pup at time of sale. However I did breach that requirement with my last litter by requesting that the male pup stayed in my name until 12 months of age in case I wanted to collect semen form him, then he was to be signed over in full. All spelled out in the contract and fully explained. As soon as I decided I would not be doing this papers were sent. Owner was a pet person, not a breeder.

 

So up to you if you are happy to accept the contract. Make sure you change the microchip over to your name. And if it's a large breed wait before desexing.

 

 

[Dogsfevr]

Many breeders keep pups till 10 weeks very normal.
We also dont supply papers until sterilized some state bodies its fine providing its clearly stated prior too .
The breeder can place in joint names until spayed or on limited reg alternatively.
 
Microchip paperwork must go with pup & that is your proof of ownership for the council & the dog .
The receipt depedending on how they do theres will have that listed on the contract as pup #12345666666 purchsed by Yadda Yadda.
We scanned the pup infront of owners so they new it was the pup they had already meet & placed a holding fee on or that its simply the pup they purchased .

[Luvapoo]

Everyone has different ideas on this.

 

I personally don't agree with dictating to a puppy buyer what they can or cannot do with a pup they have paid for.

 

I love it how some breeders think it's okay for them to breed, but not anyone else, and claim they are being ethical and responsible.  Oh Please.

 

I would check with your state body whether a breeder has the right to withhold the pedigree papers. 

 

As stated by others, the breeder must transfer the microchip to you, or give you the paperwork at the time of sale, so you can attend to it yourself.  

 

 

[Mairead]

Luvapoo, have a look at the Gumtree ads, the rescue and pound sites, and the deaf and blind dog rescue pages (people breeding all white or Merle to Merle) and see if everyone should be able to breed. 

They are living beings not designer handbags.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Mairead

[Dogsfevr]

5 hours ago, Luvapoo said:

Everyone has different ideas on this.

 

I personally don't agree with dictating to a puppy buyer what they can or cannot do with a pup they have paid for.

 

I love it how some breeders think it's okay for them to breed, but not anyone else, and claim they are being ethical and responsible.  Oh Please.

 

I would check with your state body whether a breeder has the right to withhold the pedigree papers. 

 

As stated by others, the breeder must transfer the microchip to you, or give you the paperwork at the time of sale, so you can attend to it yourself.  

 

 

The classic answer of someone who actually has no clue about State regulations or liability .
What you may think & what is legal requirements is a big difference .
Maybe read this section which applies to Victoria for example & please tell us your view ??This is just a small part of varying state laws (govt) that breeders also have to understand & inform prior to sale based on DNA results .
Being a breeder & selling pups is more than just a person saying shouldnt dictate .
H

Code of Practice for the Breeding of Animals with Heritable Defects that Cause Disease | Codes of Practice | Domestic Animals Act | Animal Welfare Victoria | Livestock and animals | Agriculture Victoria

[~Anne~]

Are they normal requirements? Well, they’re not abnormal put it that way. You either accept the requirements of you look elsewhere. 
 

However, in having said that, legally contracts like this have no solid standing as dogs are still goods and chattel. You can not tell someone who purchases an item what they can do with it once purchased. It’s as simple as that.
 

In NSW, it is law that the microchip papers are updated with the new owner’s name. So the breeder is breaking the law if they withhold these papers if they’re NSW based. I have no idea about other states but in NSW, even if the breeder doesn’t sign over the chip papers, you’re still safe as long as you have a receipt or other proof of ownership. Microchip papers do not indicate ownership on their own despite the wide held incorrect belief that they do.
 

I have no idea about the pedigree papers but according to the advice above, these must also be signed over. 
 

So ultimately my advice is - don’t buy this dog if it bothers you to work with the breeder on conditions they’re staying upfront. If you’re ok with it, continue with the purchase and enjoy your new little pup. 

[~Anne~]

On 12/8/2023 at 7:44 AM, Luvapoo said:

Everyone has different ideas on this.

 

I personally don't agree with dictating to a puppy buyer what they can or cannot do with a pup they have paid for.

 

I love it how some breeders think it's okay for them to breed, but not anyone else, and claim they are being ethical and responsible.  Oh Please.

 

I would check with your state body whether a breeder has the right to withhold the pedigree papers. 

 

As stated by others, the breeder must transfer the microchip to you, or give you the paperwork at the time of sale, so you can attend to it yourself.  

 

 

I agree in part with this. I don’t think they have the right however if they’re stating the conditions up front, anyone who purchases from them with the intent to ignore the conditions is being highly deceitful and unethical. 
 

I also understand your thoughts on the breeding aspect. It’s one of the biggest reasons (I personally believe) for the demise of the pedigree dog. 

[Dogsfevr]

On 13/08/2023 at 1:07 PM, ~Anne~ said:

 
 

However, in having said that, legally contracts like this have no solid standing as dogs are still goods and chattel. You can not tell someone who purchases an item what they can do with it once purchased. It’s as simple as that.
 

 

Actually a correctly written contract does stand up ,it may come down to how much money either side want to spend fighting it .
We sold a pup to one of Australias best contract lawyers who helped tweak ours & fully explained the pro/cons/must/must nots & all the must dos prior to accepting any monetary value .

[~Anne~]

10 hours ago, Dogsfevr said:

Actually a correctly written contract does stand up ,it may come down to how much money either side want to spend fighting it .
We sold a pup to one of Australias best contract lawyers who helped tweak ours & fully explained the pro/cons/must/must nots & all the must dos prior to accepting any monetary value .

We will have to agree to disagree. A The legal advice I’ve received over the years have indicated contracts do not stand up in court, especially when unreasonable.
 

In addition, you can’t enforce something which is breaking a law. If in NSW any breeder who does not reassign the microchip is breaking the law. This is an offence which is legislated in parliament. It’s not a guideline, but law. 
 

edited to also add - the breeder in this scenario obviously doesn’t think their contract stands up either otherwise they wouldn’t be threatening to withhold legal paperwork. 
 
 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by ~Anne~

[Dogsfevr]

15 hours ago, ~Anne~ said:

We will have to agree to disagree. A The legal advice I’ve received over the years have indicated contracts do not stand up in court, especially when unreasonable.
 

In addition, you can’t enforce something which is breaking a law. If in NSW any breeder who does not reassign the microchip is breaking the law. This is an offence which is legislated in parliament. It’s not a guideline, but law. 
 

edited to also add - the breeder in this scenario obviously doesn’t think their contract stands up either otherwise they wouldn’t be threatening to withhold legal paperwork. 
 
 

 

Microchip papers is not pedigree papers all breeders have to follow microchip paper rules thats a given as do rescues in all States .
Change of ownership papers would be referring to the pedigree papers so i think your confused about what the OP has posted so the info your given isnt correct .

We have a 100% follow through on our contract to spay puppies & have legally pursued 1 buyer who learnt quickly lying about there intentions does not make them win either .
Contracts are also based on the fact the item is sold outlining its suitable use .
If the contract states no breeding due to a bad mouth,DNA tests results making it a carrier etc then the contract is fit for purpose outling all this .
If sold as a carrier then paperwork again would clearly outline all this in the sale contract 

Sadly this is why some breeders have chosen to spay /vasectomy prior to sale which is not a path we wish to do .
Thankfully we have retired from breeding so dont have to deal with certain aspects anymore .

The pup we did sell to the contract lawyer did develop a bad mouth after we ran it on & was rehomed based on the contract outling this clearly ,what it wasnt suitable for & due to age spaying to be done at X age for growth.
Contracts do stand providing they are reasonable requirements.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Dogsfevr

[~Anne~]

 .

Edited August 15, 2023 by ~Anne~
Deleted. Not sure a pissing contest helps anyone.

[Sunflower28]

Thank you all for the wonderful and informative information. I and the breeder are both in nsw so I’ll look into the laws surrounding the “change of ownership”  being withheld, I’m not fussed about the pedigree papers being withheld it was the ownership part that I was confused with. 

I’ve also already paid the 1k deposit and am getting him in just over 2 weeks! 

Again, thank you for all the information, it has helped point me in the right direction on where to look. 
 

[~Anne~]

Good luck with the new pup. 
 

In case you’re not already aware, in NSW you also have to register your dog with your local council. This is separate to the microchip, and must be done by the time the dog reaches 6 months of age unless you have an exemption. 
 

So you’ll have 3 things to do when it comes to the offical paperwork:

- ensure you receive the microchip transfer details at point of sale

- register your dog with the local council before it reaches 6 months of age

- receive your pedigree papers from the breeder

[Mairead]

You might want to have a read of your local council's website about companion animals so you are armed with some facts if ever challenged by a less than well informed council officer, neighbour or member of the public.

I'm hoping here that your council is up with the current laws. If not maybe that will work in your favour in some things. (Destroy this sentence after reading!)

I have had a vet nurse more au fait with the regulations and IT than the customer service officers at the council office so online may be your better option.