Fox red lab

[Netteckie]

I just got a fox red lab pup it has the white bolo under front feet is this common

[Rebanne]

I'd say ask your breeder who you got the pup from. Unless you bred it then maybe reach out to other lab breeders. There are a couple of lab breeders here, hopefully they will be along and can help.

[Mairead]

Yes ask the breeder. I have no experience with Labradors but I know that usually solid-coloured dogs sometimes have small amounts of white eg Rhodesian Ridgebacks. Dogs can have not much white on the top of the toes but have white underneath around the toe pads and/or at the back of the pastern between the main foot pad and the stopper pad. I was often asked about it by trainee judges because it is not exactly specified in the breed standard. White markings can diminish as the puppy grows but I've not known them to disappear unless they were very small markings at birth.

 

White markings are interesting (to a colour genetics nerd like me). In dogs if an otherwise solid coloured dog has some white it is more likely to be on the chest. If more white than that it follows a pattern - chest, tip of tail, front toes, face then if more white further up the legs, white collar and so on (called Irish spotting) eg Border Collie, then about equal white and colour (called piebald) until the predominantly white dog still has colour on the head especially around the ears, and base of tail eg some Fox Terriers. All-white dogs with dark pigment are coloured -and-white dogs where the colour has virtually disappeared (called extreme white piebald) eg most Samoyeds and Pyrenean Mountain Dogs.

Contrast horses where a small amount of white will be commonly on the forehead and a horse usually has a lot of white in other places before any appears on the belly eg Clydesdales, some Arabians.

It depends on embryonic migration of pigment cells.

[sandgrubber]

Not uncommon.   Bolo pads have a long distinguished heritage in Labs.  Bolo was a top Lab when the breed was first established and his progeny often had white on pads.  I don't know if judges in the 2020s know this...have lost track of the show scene.   Certainly nothing to worry about.

[DogsAndTheMob]

1 hour ago, Mairead said:

White markings are interesting (to a colour genetics nerd like me). In dogs if an otherwise solid coloured dog has some white it is more likely to be on the chest. If more white than that it follows a pattern - chest, tip of tail, front toes, face then if more white further up the legs, white collar and so on (called Irish spotting) eg Border Collie, then about equal white and colour (called piebald) until the predominantly white dog still has colour on the head especially around the ears, and base of tail eg some Fox Terriers. All-white dogs with dark pigment are coloured -and-white dogs where the colour has virtually disappeared (called extreme white piebald) eg most Samoyeds and Pyrenean Mountain Dogs.

 

Interestingly, it is more common for border collies to have half white or even fully white heads and solid coloured bodies than solid coloured heads and white bodies. In fact, I have never seen the latter. A performance-breeder I knew bred quite a few litters with puppies with half-white heads.  In most litters, both parents were “Irish spotted” and the ratios of Irish spotting to half white heads was about 3: 1 - consistent with a recessive gene. However, one dog seemed to sire even numbers of pups with solid coloured heads and half-white heads. That could have been due to chance but he had a wide collar and a very wide blaze, so I wondered if he carried two copies of the gene that in most cases produces puppies with half-white heads.

 

 

[Mairead]

That was a general introduction to white markings. There are very probably breed specific variations and environmental influences. I'm thinking of Boston Terriers, Bernese Mountain Dogs, Dalmatians? and other breeds with very specific and not easily standardised markings requirements. What proportion of puppies don't measure up markings-wise?

How much of a problem is this with show judges? Should the breed standards be modernised to reflect present  knowledge of genetics?

[DogsAndTheMob]

3 hours ago, Mairead said:

That was a general introduction to white markings. There are very probably breed specific variations and environmental influences. I'm thinking of Boston Terriers, Bernese Mountain Dogs, Dalmatians? and other breeds with very specific and not easily standardised markings requirements. What proportion of puppies don't measure up markings-wise?

How much of a problem is this with show judges? Should the breed standards be modernised to reflect present  knowledge of genetics?

The Border Collie standard then, as now, simply said “White should never predominate.” However, in practice, breeders and judges were very finicky about markings. A friend got a puppy that was the pick of the litter conformation-wise because its breeder would not keep and show a puppy that did not have a full collar.

 

It would make sense to ensure that breed standards are consistent with genetics. I have never thought it reasonable that the Newfoundland standard allows 3 colours: black,

brown

white with black markings.

 

Why is white with brown markings not acceptable?

[Mairead]

8 minutes ago, DogsAndTheMob said:

However, in practice, breeders and judges were very finicky about markings. A friend got a puppy that was the pick of the litter conformation-wise because its breeder would not keep and show a puppy that did not have a full collar.

Reflects more on the breeders and judges than on the quality of the dog. Some judges are confident enough to be able to justify their decisions. Probably easier to do when written critiques are mandatory.

I'm guessing most standards were written when there was more tradition and folklore than genetics and biomechanics, so some colours/markings were thought to indicate crossbreeding too recently?

I met a silver and tan Weimaraner. You had to be standing in the right light to be certain of his tan points. He was destined to be 'pet only'. Why?

 

[Rebanne]

13 hours ago, DogsAndTheMob said:

The Border Collie standard then, as now, simply said “White should never predominate.” However, in practice, breeders and judges were very finicky about markings. A friend got a puppy that was the pick of the litter conformation-wise because its breeder would not keep and show a puppy that did not have a full collar.

 

It would make sense to ensure that breed standards are consistent with genetics. I have never thought it reasonable that the Newfoundland standard allows 3 colours: black,

brown

white with black markings.

 

Why is white with brown markings not acceptable?

I see a fair few BC who don't have a full collar gaining their Championship titles.  As to the Newfoundland you'd have to ask breeders who know their history

[Rebanne]

13 hours ago, Mairead said:

I met a silver and tan Weimaraner. You had to be standing in the right light to be certain of his tan points. He was destined to be 'pet only'. Why?

 

Because the hallmark of the breed is their colour. Again you would have to ask a breeder who knows the history of the breed. Nothing wrong with pet only.

[sandgrubber]

On 11/08/2023 at 6:14 PM, Mairead said:

That was a general introduction to white markings. There are very probably breed specific variations and environmental influences. I'm thinking of Boston Terriers, Bernese Mountain Dogs, Dalmatians? and other breeds with very specific and not easily standardised markings requirements. What proportion of puppies don't measure up markings-wise?

How much of a problem is this with show judges? Should the breed standards be modernised to reflect present  knowledge of genetics?

English Springers are interesting in tending to have white background with dark (liver or black) ticking and patches.   Ears most often dark.  Tail and paws most often white.  Bench breeding discourages ticking, but it's probably a majority trait in field Spanners.  Trendy stuff includes roans and tricolour.   Occasionally,  eyes of different colours.

 

Personally I find colour genetics interesting, but selection for colour infuriating.   Back to Labs, the land race behind them (Lesser St John's dog, now extinct) was usually black with white common in paws and on the chest.  The damn Victorians selected for solid colour, mostly black.  Like "improving the breed" means making its coat appear more like your servants' attire.

Edited August 17, 2023 by sandgrubber

[Mairead]

2 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

 

 

Personally I find colour genetics interesting, but selection for colour infuriating.  

Me too. 

Just look at the colours in mass bred French Bulldogs now - lavender, Merle (also 'fluffy'). Going to be some deaf and blind ones soon if not already.

I can see why there were guidelines for breeding Great Dane colours and I'm glad mantles, for example, can now be shown but there are also some  colours out there (eg fawnequin) that I hope are not promoted as rare and so bred only for colour. But I also can't see why the occasional silver and tan Weimaraner is less of a Weimaraner.

I told a work colleague interested in a Labrador puppy to steer clear of chocolates because they were fashionable. They did.

And me? I ended up with a breed that is only ever one colour.