Anyone had experience with DAP (good or bad)?

[REALOldNick]

I have a 5 yo dog, a Huntaway. Beautiful dog, very friendly and loving. Gentle with our other two and us. Loves a cuddle. Barks a bit, but not often. Great in the car. The perfect dog....BUT ....he is scared of sooooo many things. We were warned that he was scared of thunder. However we have found that is scared of rain, wind in the trees, jet airplanes. If I am trying to tell one of the other dogs to do something, when I am not even raising my voice he tries to obey as well, then starts looking all sulky.

 

Most of it I reckon is improving, but Thunder is certainly the worst and does not seem to be abating. But heavy rain and high winds are not too good either. The fear extends to shaking, panting, a bit of salivation. He will not eat if there is thunder and often for some time afterward. Trying food during even the mildest of storms results in rejection.

 

So am wiling to give DAP a go. But I am uncertain, based on supposed reports, but usually with no real scientific tests.

 

I would like to hear of people's experiences.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Nick

[Rebanne]

I've tried a few different things, all seemed a bit so so. What worked for my girl was she chose an open crate to go to. She's a bit sound sensitive as well. She still shakes like an earthquake but seems settled in "her" spot.

[tdierikx]

I've had 2 dogs who have developed thunder/storm/fireworks phobias over the years. One would settle if I put her in the bathroom with the door shut, as if she felt safe in there and the thunder/storm/fireworks couldn't get to her - the other was a trembling wreck who wouldn't settle unless she was leaning up against someone (human, not other dog), as if she thought you would keep her safe. The first dog would start trembling and acting weird hours before a storm actually came... we think she sensed the barometric pressure changes. The second one only reacted once the storm started, and if no-one was home, she'd panic and run out into the rain and get soaked to the skin, rather than hunkering down inside where she was actually safer - but she was a strange character even before the phobias started.

 

If you aren't sure about DAP, maybe you could try a thunder-shirt for your boy?

 

T.

[persephone]

You could also try this .  I use it quite a lot with a couple of our dogs who don't like thunder . It's not a cure, but does settle them somewhat. 

[Rebanne]

I wonder about the thunder shirts. Opal gets so hot, like boiling to touch, and I worried a thunder shirt would make her hotter. Luckily she found her own safe spot.

[Little Gifts]

My old girl developed fears after she lost her hearing. She also developed Sundowners, which is a type of dementia. I tried a DAP diffuser and it seemed to work a little so I also got her a DAP collar (so we could alternate). That didn't work at all. After about 6 months the diffuser wasn't making any difference either. After a recommendation on here I bought some Vetalogica Tranquil Calm chews and she religiously had those every day for several years and I believe they helped her just take the edge off everything. One of my other dogs was very scared of thunder (and even heavy rain sometimes). I had an old, thin blanket that was very heavy. We used to drape it over her and sit with her and it helped her a lot. Often it would be summer storms so we'd have to put the air con on too so she didn't heat up. So you could also try something with weight, the kind of weight that if you didn't position it properly the weight would cause it to slide off. (so far more than a beach towel type weight).

[_PL_]

Vetalogica is great! (Thank you LG  ) 

What you need is a calming supplement with Vitamin B and Tryptophan. Whatever is in your budget.

Years ago there was only one and it was dark, sticky and sooooo nasty.  

DAP relies on pheremones and I wasted a lot of money on diffusers. Probably the most effective use was when I had the spray. I put it on a bandana and on bedding.

 

McDowells Herbal are great, they have a free online consult for pets and can recommend which of their supplement/s could help. https://shop.mcdowellsherbal.com/forms/consultation

 

 

 

[Deeds]

Has anyone used Zylkene capsules?  And did they work?

[Papillon Kisses]

Hi Nick,

 

My dog didn’t have storm phobia, but he did have generalised anxiety disorder, noise sensitivity and OCD. We saw a number of behaviour vets and a vet behaviour specialist as he was a tricky case, alongside a lot of behaviour management and force free training to help him feel better about the things that worried him.
 

DAP is one of the few over the counter remedies that actually has an evidence-base, however by itself it’s only really for mild to moderate fear/anxiety/stress. There is a money back guarantee (see ADAPTIL website for terms) if your dog doesn’t respond to it. Mine didn’t, but my parents’ dog is now able to have a lower dose of one of his anxiety meds as long as he wears his adaptil collar, which I think is very cool!

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that your Huntaway has generalised anxiety disorder and storm phobia. I’d recommend getting him assessed by a Behaviour Vet or a behaviour-savvy GP vet, to see whether that’s the case and if so what treatment he needs, such as anxiety medication or an evidence-based supplement, along with DAP if you choose to try it. If nothing else you need them to rule out and treat any medical problems that might be contributing. Chronic pain for example is highly comorbid in dogs with noise sensitivity/phobias.

 

Please don’t just go out and buy stuff without individualised vet advice. While DAP has an evidence base and is unlikely to harm given that it’s just a smell, over the counter products often promise to do things they do not and are sometimes contraindicated for the dog in front of you (a product being perceived as ‘natural’ doesn’t necessarily mean it’s appropriate, safe or effective). One can waste a lot of time and money on things that were never going to touch the sides, all while the dog’s underlying medical problem/s go untreated and worsen.

 

If it’s determined that your Huntaway would benefit from anxiety medication, know that the right medication/s and dose/s for him won’t change his personality for the worse, nor turn him into a zombie. If anything it will enable his personality to shine as we’re not our best selves when riddled with anxiety.

 

Once his anxiety is reduced to a level where he’s able to eat, you can start playing counter-conditioning games where boom = high value treat rains from sky. Don’t be stingy, use something special, and make sure you do it in that order: thunderclap THEN treat. You want the scary thing to predict good things happening, rather than the other way around or else your dog might start panicking at the mere sight/smell of that tasty treat! On a related note, our behaviour vet recommends staying away from thunderstorm CDs without professional instruction, as she frequently sees dogs whose well-meaning humans (before seeing her) have accidentally sensitised rather than desensitised their dogs by playing them.

 

Oftentimes when storm phobia is left untreated it generalises, and everyday wind, shadows, and other noises can become triggering. Untreated and under-treated anxiety also tends to worsen over time. This may have been what happened with your guy. It highlights how we really want to treat storm phobia early, often and thoroughly. That and panic attacks place tremendous stress on a dog’s cardiac and respiratory systems over time and this can be deadly. (I am not being hyperbolic, see first section: https://www.dvm360.com/view/storm-phobias)

 

Re thundershirt, you could experiment with a scarf or bandage to see if that helps (look up ttouch wraps). Unsure if thundershirt also has a money back guarantee. You do need to be careful that your dog is genuinely calm not just shut down, and that it doesn’t come to predict the scary thing. I know dogs who ask for their thundershirt when they sense that a storm is coming (no better meteorologist than a dog with storm phobia) as they know it helps them feel better. I also know dogs who panic at the sight of it because it has come to predict a storm. Note also that thundershirts do up by velcro which can be an issue for noise sensitive dogs.

 

With the “sulky” look when you ask your other dogs to do something. What you’re likely seeing are more subtle signs of fear/anxiety/stress (see link with body language handouts). It wouldn’t surprise me if he has a punishment history from the people or rescue who had him before you, and has come to fear anything that looks like obedience training despite not raising your voice. I can’t stress enough how important it is to stick to rewards-based/force free methods, for all dogs but especially these sensitive ones. A force free trainer can help you with a behaviour management and modification plan for his anxiety including the game I mentioned above. For WA, I’d check out Pet Professional Guild Australia and IMDT directories.

Link dump

https://www.anzcvs.org.au/chapters/veterinary+behaviour+chapter (many of these will do Telehealth consults if needed)

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180320100719.htm
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/10/2/318

https://www.drmartybecker.com/wp-content/cache/wp-rocket/drmartybecker.com/fear-free/2-things-pets-firework-fears/index-https.html_gzip

https://illis.se/en/eliminating-firework-and-thunder-phobia-in-dogs/

https://www.vetbehaviourteam.com/client-handouts/

https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/you-cant-reinforce-fear-dogs-and-thunderstorms

https://www.companionanimalpsychology.com/2016/06/seven-reasons-to-use-reward-based-dog.html

https://www.ppgaustralia.net.au/find-a-professional

https://www.imdt.com.au/find-a-qualified-imdt-trainer

 

 

[REALOldNick]

On 09/06/2023 at 5:28 AM, persephone said:

You could also try this .  I use it quite a lot with a couple of our dogs who don't like thunder . It's not a cure, but does settle them somewhat. 

OK. Thanks for that. It seems I can't get it in Oz, so I will have to check out the from the US.

[REALOldNick]

Thanks papillonkisses for that incredible input. Being lazy and cheap, I would need to work up to getting training, trying other stuff first.

 

OK. Both as advised and because the whole thing is so uncertain, I think I will talk to my vet. Trouble is, last time the practice suggested a dog behaviourist, who had a _6 week_ lead time and charged $300 for 1/2 hour. That also was the only contact you had with her; the rest was with her agent trainers. I passed on that. She operates in a swish market in the richer suburbs and I suspect has clients happy to cough up.

[persephone]

2 hours ago, REALOldNick said:

OK. Thanks for that. It seems I can't get it in Oz, so I will have to check out the from the US.

You can just use the ordinary Rescue Remedy - it is alcohol based, but a few drops won't do any damage! Or get the pet one here

Edited June 10, 2023 by persephone

[Papillon Kisses]

You’re welcome. Your dog being unable to eat suggests that he’s too anxious to do much of the training component and you need to treat the underlying medical problem first (e.g. anxiety disorder). If you were being chased by a lion you wouldn’t want to stop for snacks! Being unable to eat is also a reason why I suspect DAP by itself may not be enough. I too would start with a vet.

I’m getting the impression that the vet you saw isn’t that knowledgeable about behaviour if they just referred to you to what sounds like a dog trainer (any non-vet person can call themselves a ‘behaviourist’) and they had that setup. Idk it just seems suss to me. The Behaviour Vets I know cost a bit more but their consults run anywhere between 1-3hrs and include things like phone/email support in between consults. You’re not just palmed off to a trainer after 30mins.

 

Unfortunately I can’t think of any suitable GP vets in WA, only BVs. Good BVs are worth every cent but are a chunk of cash if your budget is stretched. Do consider when crunching numbers that all the over the counter stuff adds up fast whereas the most common meds for GAD (if he ends up needing meds) are something like $10 from chemist warehouse. Regular vets can prescribe too, it can just be a challenge sometimes finding someone knowledgeable about behaviour.

[Papillon Kisses]

7 hours ago, Deeds said:

Has anyone used Zylkene capsules?  And did they work?

Zylkene is one of the few supplements that has an evidence base, but again more for mild-moderate anxiety. We tried it as an adjunct to meds at our BV’s recommendation and decided not to continue. We learnt from adaptil to stop after the recommended trial period if something didn’t seem to have much/any benefit, rather than just holding out hope… all these things can really add up. So that’s our story with Zylkene, but I know other dogs who benefit from it either by itself or in addition to their anxiety meds.

[REALOldNick]

2 hours ago, persephone said:

You can just use the ordinary Rescue Remedy - it is alcohol based, but a few drops won't do any damage! Or get the pet one here

HAH! Alcohol based! That'll work....until next day! :D

[REALOldNick]

I would like to add that our nervous pal BJay (Beej for short) has HUGE ears. He sits outside and if anything is happening; parrots, crows, other birds even flapping their wings, leaves rustling, his ears are working constantly in a way that our other guys do not (one of them is 14 and losing hearing anyway, but the other one is 8 and hears fine.)

[Rebanne]

I've always used the people Rescue Remedy on the dogs, alcohol wasn't a problem. One thing I've heard about but haven't tried is cotton wool in the ear with a sock over the ears. Toe cut off so it's like a really firm snood. 

 

Beej does have a fine set of ears on him. Very cute.

[persephone]

23 hours ago, Rebanne said:

One thing I've heard about but haven't tried is cotton wool in the ear with a sock over the ears. Toe cut off so it's like a really firm snood. 

That's a good idea