Adopt dont shop is spreading

[Kazm]

When I was breeding pups I  sold a few pups to “elderly “people and had no problem doing so. Of course I asked all relevant questions etc and deemed them to be going to good homes. One pup went to a 70 year old guy, we became good friends with him. He was a very active man and had owned dogs all his life but always in his heart wanted a mini schnauzer, so he finally got one. Sadly though 18 months later he developed cancer and sadly passed away. His wife was not overly happy with being left with a young dog but 8 years on all is well. She absolutely adores the dog and he is such a smart, well trained boy. A few others went to couples in their 60s and I’m happy to say they are all living a great life. Well trained and well behaved dogs and I personally know this as I have always kept in touch with people who bought from me. I can actually say the pups I sold to older buyers have been looked after better than some of the younger ones who work all day or have young families.  But in my opinion as a breeder, as long as you meet and talk and ask lots of questions to prospective buyers  you get a feel that the pups will be in the best home for them. And then you keep your fingers crossed they do get treated properly.

[asal]

3 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

Inferred motive.  The actual may be quite different.   I'm reminded of a widow (husband killed in plane crash) and 2 kids who were my tenants years back.  She told me she overheard one of her kids say to a friend: "My parents are divorced too.  My daddy's dead".  Adoption, like divorce, become a norm and advertising that you bought from a registered breeder risks looking like a tall poppy.

 

 

very true and we all know what happens to a tall poppy in Australia.

 

although I do find a certain irony that we celebrate anzac day with what? the red poppy?

 

What happened to Adrienne is all to common the attitude to anyone who bred a litter, even among the very members of DogsNSW.

So quick to explain they either never breed or only one litter.

 

Anyone else who bred more is spoken to and treated the same as Adriene was by that lady in the street, but if you bred more than two litters so will you by your fellow members who feel they are ethical and responsible because they are either dead end kennels because no pup is main registered unless they kept it, or dont breed anyway.

 

I do not blame anyone for not breeding anymore, it is not worth the stress and condemnation earned or not.

Never forget the heartbroken friend who had joined her breed club worked her herself to a standstill for the club and what happened?  Treated like dirt because the thought police perusing the litter for sale adds, added up she had bred six litters that year? The average litter size was 2 to 3 so still less than one big breed litter anyway?  She had 8 bitches for goodness sake, (she had been having so much fun showing them and organising food for the club members at ever show, as well as finding great trophies for the winners) so either leave all but one or two empty annually or face the humiliation she did when accused of being a puppy farmer.

 

That was some 12 years ago and this persecution has simply been escalating from among the membership to spread to the general public ever since.

 

watching the number of puppies registered annually I suspected the ankc was heading into the red, hence the increasing registration fees but I could only suspect what what happening until some one had the foresight to put together the Forensic View of puppy breeding in Australia.  There it is  for all to see where this is heading, the figures are from 2016 and the downhill trend is not slowing, in a population expanding by the millions finding a pet IS going to be harder and harder despite the pounds being full of unwanted breeds which come from where?  well here the figures tell you.

 

https://ankc.org.au/media/6598/a-forensic-view-of-puppy-breeding-in-australiav4.pdf

 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by asal

[Adrienne]

Sorry about appearing down on elderly owners! If I was approached by one who had no mobility issues and good family support for possible pup outliving owner I would consider it ... but still think if an elderly person is looking for companionship in their golden years an older dog who also needs companionship in their Golden years that makes a nice match...

 

Anyway, went off to Dogs QLD Show this morning to see the Terriers and to buy a stripping knife. Found no stripping knife on sale (the lady who had been running her stall for 12 years didn't even know what it was). Damn, I was sure I would find one at the Show because so many breeds need hand stripping!

 

I found the Terriers and there were just two exhibitors of Aussie Terriers. I loitered nearby and then asked a lady about where she got her stripping tools. She was fairly helpful and showed me hers and one I really liked and I will try and buy the same. Talking about coat types I mentioned one of my dogs had a kind of fine silky coat, lovely colour but texture finer than my other dog whose coat is a deep rich red and very coarse. The lady told me some of the older lines had the finer silky textured coat and I immediately told her my dog was from old lines because the breeder was elderly and they had been breeding and showing for 40 years but stopped some years ago. 

 

Anyway, she told me that Dogs QLD had rescued 50 dogs from the Kennel in NSW (I knew it was the same one because she mentioned the lady was keeping spaniels and Aussies together - the son bred the spaniels, the husband bred the Aussies). I am intrigued, because I knew from taking the breeder down that things had gone pear shaped with the kennels I think as a result of Husband suffering dementia and a feature of that being he refused to sell any puppies whilst continuing to breed - I mean, who knows really. It sounded very sad.  

 

Anyway! What happened to the fifty dogs? Where did they go? Anyone know? PM form privacy please. I came home and tried calling the breeder to catch up, unfortunately she has fallen and broken her hip and is in the hospital. She is in her eighties .. very sad. She was going to send me a book on the Breed in which their dogs appeared but froze up when I asked her to put a return address so I could send her photos of my dogs and pups. She was a wealth of knowledge, but seemed very wary of speaking to people about dogs which is a shame, but now I understand the hell she must have been through both with the reality of the breeding getting out of hand, her husbands demise and I am SURE the total vilification of herself by the breeder community - even after 40 years of being involved. I don't know the facts, but I'd like to. 

 

Also, the Australian Terriers I saw were just LOVELY. ALL the dogs I saw were fantastic and what a pleasure to walk around seeing them all, I caught the Staffies in the ring and honestly they were so beautiful and nothing like what you see walking around the streets! The most lovely thing I saw was an elderly man with a Fox terrier pup ... he was so quiet and gentle with the dog, and the dog was lovely, alert, willing, and attentive.

 

I listened to two men talking about their terriers, one was saying "If they don''t have a bit of fight in them, then they're not a terrier!" Second man agreed "Yeah, back in the day they'd be fighting each other in the ring! But its not allowed now, People don't let dogs be dogs anymore! "

 

I also saw people just treating their dogs like objects, manhandling them, talking about them in derogatory ways... I guess that's what can happen when you are sick to f*** of travelling around to all these shows to get that ribbon or whatever - sometimes there are only one or two exhibitors and I'm guessing these are the people who get all championed up or something. Look, I don't really know how it works so correct me if I am wrong!

[Diva]

3 hours ago, Adrienne said:

 

I also saw people just treating their dogs like objects, manhandling them, talking about them in derogatory ways... I guess that's what can happen when you are sick to f*** of travelling around to all these shows to get that ribbon or whatever - sometimes there are only one or two exhibitors and I'm guessing these are the people who get all championed up or something. Look, I don't really know how it works so correct me if I am wrong!

I don’t know what ‘all championed up or something’ means, but with a pretty rare breed I would sometimes find myself with the only breed entry.

However, you still get to contest for best in group/class in group/class in-show.

I haven’t shown for several years but when I did I often had the only one of breed but still had my dog placed above 40 or 50, or sometimes a lot more, other dogs by winning an age class in show, or a best in group. Even rarely a best in show.
That can be a good reality check on your judgement of your own dog, especially if you have a group or breed specialist judging.
it’s easy to get kennel blind in a rare breed and that is the value of shows to me, exposing your dogs to the judgement of others is a good discipline if you intend to breed them. Not essential. There are certainly other ways.  But a discipline nonetheless. 
 

Harsh handling is unforgivable. But I wouldn’t fall too much for the derogatory comments. If they were about their own dogs they may be a bit of game play. 
 

Did you look on line for stripping knives? These are reputable companies:

 

https://www.petsonthepark.com.au/dog-products/grooming/stripping-knives/

 

https::/www.petnetwork.com.au/collections/coat-stripping-products?page=2

 

https://www.ozgroomingworld.com.au/tools/hand-stripping

[Boronia]

A little but to partly answer @Adrienne's question:

when you buy your stripping knife get the one that has a groove to put your thumb, an example here  (though the teeth are to coarse for your dog) I find they are more comfortable and easier to use than the flat-sided bladed ones. Wear rubber gloves also as your fingers get sore if you don't, you can buy little finger condoms like these . if you are using a stripping stone I find it's cheaper to buy a Heros Chiropody sponge (it's a type of pumice stone) from Chemist Warehouse here  it does a good job.

Just do 10 minutes on your dog each day

Edited April 30, 2023 by Boronia

[sandgrubber]

10 hours ago, Diva said:

exposing your dogs to the judgement of others is a good discipline if you intend to breed them.

Only if the others have good judgement.   Personally I'd rather see veterinarians and people involved in the breed's purpose, whether sport, working or companion,  have equal say to conformation judges.  IMO the unfortunate downfall of the pedigree system is due to overemphasis on the surface aspects of conformation that can be judged in the show ring, and inattention to health and temperament. Pedigrees could used well, but have mostly been used to narrow the gene pool to particular showy types.  In many cases,  health testing is merely an effort to backtrack the effects of a century and a half of 'line breeding', closed registers and consideration of form, while neglecting function.

[Adrienne]

11 hours ago, Diva said:

16 hours ago, Adrienne said:

I also saw people just treating their dogs like objects, manhandling them, talking about them in derogatory ways... I guess that's what can happen when you are sick to f*** of travelling around to all these shows to get that ribbon or whatever - sometimes there are only one or two exhibitors and I'm guessing these are the people who get all championed up or something. Look, I don't really know how it works so correct me if I am wrong!

I don’t know what ‘all championed up or something’ means, but with a pretty rare breed I would sometimes find myself with the only breed entry.

However, you still get to contest for best in group/class in group/class in-show.

I haven’t shown for several years but when I did I often had the only one of breed but still had my dog placed above 40 or 50, or sometimes a lot more, other dogs by winning an age class in show, or a best in group. Even rarely a best in show.
That can be a good reality check on your judgement of your own dog, especially if you have a group or breed specialist judging.
it’s easy to get kennel blind in a rare breed and that is the value of shows to me, exposing your dogs to the judgement of others is a good discipline if you intend to breed them. Not essential. There are certainly other ways.  But a discipline nonetheless. 
 

Harsh handling is unforgivable. But I wouldn’t fall too much for the derogatory comments. If they were about their own dogs they may be a bit of game play. 

 

I hadn't thought about rare breeds and it makes sense because of course the Breed Standard is what each dog is being judged against in the first instance and so there need not be any other dog of the same breed in the ring. And yes the eye can get used to seeing what it sees every day, I experienced this with my own dogs which are same breed but different types, when I got the second I found myself favouring the first type I had..then for a while my opinion flipped entirely ... and now I seem to favour different things in each dog and I can't stop looking at my puppies trying to tell which one has which things, (a pleasant pastime). When at the show I saw both my dogs ears are too big, which I already knew but seeing other AT's IRL just made it really stand out. I also think one of my dogs is a bit long in the body and seeing the very neat AT's made me that that even more so. And finally I thought out of all the ATs I saw one of my dogs had the best tail!

 

The derogatory comments were all directed at the breeders own dogs. The man handling wasn't rough, no dogs were cowering or vocalising, I just don't like seeing it. I did see one person slap his dog in the snout. Yuck. You see this in the horse world too, people slapping and jerking their animals around.

 

I saw a Standard Poodle crossing the way with his handler, moving with energy and pride, kind of dancing a bit and so on but keeping himself on a loose leash, WOW so beautiful - power and grace. 

 

The lady I spoke to was very helpful re the stripping knife, taking the time to show me her collection of tools and giving me the details of the supplier she bought the knife I favoured most from.  I am glad of the chat because not only did I find the knife I will buy after holding her in my hand (which is why I would not buy off the internet previously) but I will also feel braver about really pulling all most all of one of my dogs coats out.

[Adrienne]

57 minutes ago, Boronia said:

f you are using a stripping stone I find it's cheaper to buy a Heros Chiropody sponge (it's a type of pumice stone) from Chemist Warehouse here  it does a good job.

Thanks! I have been using a kind of a pumice thing from horse land. I will get this and try. The knife which I saw and held and liked was metal and had a kind of pumice type head, it was curved. No teeth. She has had it for years and was still using the same one. 

[Diva]

2 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

Only if the others have good judgement.   Personally I'd rather see veterinarians and people involved in the breed's purpose, whether sport, working or companion,  have equal say to conformation judges.  IMO the unfortunate downfall of the pedigree system is due to overemphasis on the surface aspects of conformation that can be judged in the show ring, and inattention to health and temperament. Pedigrees could used well, but have mostly been used to narrow the gene pool to particular showy types.  In many cases,  health testing is merely an effort to backtrack the effects of a century and a half of 'line breeding', closed registers and consideration of form, while neglecting function.

Good judgement is always key. Most vets can’t even tell if my dogs are a good weight, they mostly want them fat. And I have tried to get diagnoses on soft tissue injuries causing a gait anomaly and the vets can’t even see the anomaly, they have no idea what soundness looks like. As for breed screening, inherited health parameters, or genetic diversity? They know less than me.

So just like show judges, you have  to pick the knowledgeable ones to pay attention to. Some vets are knowledgeable - my imported girls are bred by a U.S. vet who has studied the breed in depth- but if the average suburban vet is given a say the breed will be completely stuffed. And I love and appreciate my local vets, I just know their limitations. 

 

As for dysfunctional show dogs? The big US breed national finished on the weekend. The Best in Show was a female from veteran class. A dual champion, coursing and show. And also the winner of the separate triathlon competition which aggregates scores in obedience:rally, lure coursing, and a conformation rating by a separate judge.  

Not a ‘campaigned’ show dog, a functional versatile girl with exquisite breed type.  Her brother won select dog. And that is not the first time a coursing champion has won the big prize either.  Just happens that her litter sister and half sister are both on my couch. 
 

As for genetic diversity, the breed raised the funds for research by UC Davis. Despite a recognised lack of diversity in haplotypes, the study concluded the breed had few health issues. Having come from functional foundation stock that had to prove itself in the field, and with inherent variations between the big kennels, is to be credited for that I’d guess. Because it has had to persist through the genetic bottle necks of revolution, wars, and now anti-pure bred dogma, and that does narrow the gene pool. 
 

I’m not against bringing in a different breed if needed- but it’s not needed in all breeds. Yes we have problems with breeders not knowing how best to use the genetic diversity we have, and some wanting to fall back on the old rules of thumb they learnt when they set out.  But it’s complicate stuff and we don’t have the science communicators and knowledge brokers need to make it accessible. That’s the gap to me. People just take extreme positions and try to stick the boot into purebreds. 
 

We have some really knowledgeable show judges. And some real dudes. But the good ones are amazing, and I appreciate what they have taught me. I actually dislike showing, but every time I have a young dog out I go, because I want the perspectives of those other eyes.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Diva

[Adrienne]

14 minutes ago, Diva said:

Having come from functional foundation stock that had to prove itself in the field, and with inherent variations between the big kennels, is to be credited for that I’d guess.

I just started a new topic on epigenetics, this sounds relevent!

[Mairead]

Have not been involved with shows for some years but have fond memories of that time. Sighthound people were almost all nice people, and yes the good judges were gems. They had judged all over the world and were happy to come to Australia and to share their opinions. We had written critiques too which were enlightening.

The judges understood they needed to be subcontracted to offset costs. I remember telling one judge he had (in the days before they were popular) 42 French Bulldogs to judge at their specialty. "But I am not a specialist!" he replied. I told him he would be by the time he had judged 42 of them.

 

[BDJ]

@Diva do you have any video or links to the show you quoted (or even the dogs)? - sounds amazing and I would love to have a look.  ta

 

[sandgrubber]

22 hours ago, Adrienne said:

Sorry about appearing down on elderly owners! If I was approached by one who had no mobility issues and good family support for possible pup outliving owner I would consider it ... but still think if an elderly person is looking for companionship in their golden years an older dog who also needs companionship in their Golden years that makes a nice match...

f*** the "golden years" stereotypes.   A retired, healthy, and financially stable person better able to deal with puppy than a family with two frenzied adults who work full-time and a big mortgage and a couple of kids.  Divorce, bankruptcy, unemployment and loss of rental can be almost as disruptive, from a dog's perspective, as death of an owner.  Puppies need time and patience.   Retirees tend to have lots of both, and some of us have accumulated a lot of knowledge about dogs.

As as oldie, I appreciate puppy buoyancy.   I don't need to add the sorrow of a dog in its ending years to the pains of my own  aging.  I now have  a 2 year old ESS.  His energy keeps me to 10,000+ steps a day and his naughtiness and quirks help keep me from feeling and acting my age.

[Adrienne]

25 minutes ago, sandgrubber said:

Puppies need time and patience.   Retirees tend to have lots of both, and some of us have accumulated a lot of knowledge about dogs.

Absolutely agree. I just haven't been approached by one ... yet, that is suitable in those ways. And if I met an old codger who would give Spanner a good home I would be over the moon! 

 

25 minutes ago, sandgrubber said:

I don't need to add the sorrow of a dog in its ending years to the pains of my own  aging.

Well this is exactly what I intend to be doing when I am an oldie and my own dogs have died of old age. I would consider that both a service and a privilege, not a sorrow. It is difficult when our pets die, but they do die and I am okay with that.

[Deeds]

I have witnessed many times 30-40 yr old idiots who can't control a 5-7kg dog whilst older people in their 60-70's are perfectly controlling 50 kg plus dogs. 

 

Perhaps it is more about dog owner responsibility being exercised than age.

 

And t's usually the 5 kg type dogs attacking the much larger dogs around here.

[coneye]

On 30/04/2023 at 2:37 PM, Adrienne said:

Sorry about appearing down on elderly owners! If I was approached by one who had no mobility issues and good family support for possible pup outliving owner I would consider it ... but still think if an elderly person is looking for companionship in their golden years an older dog who also needs companionship in their Golden years that makes a nice match...

 

 Well i for one APPLAUD you  i can see where your coming from . I'm 65   in good health , still play sport , coach   in  sport , am active , ride motorbikes   i don't work  i retired at 55 , spend all my days riding  motorbikes , doing my chosen sport , travelling the river  in my housboat ,fishing off the dog beach  and i would be thouroghly pissed  if i came to buy a dog from you and you  refused because of my age .

HOWEVER  , i also know that you  don't apply it to the likes of me ,    but    others in bad health , lack of mobility , ect ect   why would you want to sell them your dog that could end up looking for a home it cannot find  at the age of 10  , I don't blame you in fact  even though i've never thought of it before i applaud you .

Regards breeders , you will always need them because facts are  you like the look of a dog  the temprement of a breed , you need breeders to supply them

I also agree with you that  a  older dog will be better for some , i  myself wanted to buy an older dog , weve had too many houses chewed to bits from  pups we don't want to go through it again , only problem i had and the reason  we never got one is because my breed of choice Rottys , do not live long  and thats just facts   , but yet when ever i went after an older one  i was amazed at so called  caring breeders were asking similar money has  they wanted for pups  , example i seen one breeder    who had a bitch she was  5 nearly 6 and not to be bred from again ,  they wanted  $3000  plus desexing fee's   and the dog was already slowing down      what would that dog live for another 3 years before vets bills cam in  on top of that  it was advertized has  brought up with kids in the familly home , but yet it was'nt house trained . That was the last one we looked at , becuase it actually caused world war 3 in our house the wife fell in love with it ,   my brain and wallet ruled  me not my heart ,   

 

On 30/04/2023 at 2:37 PM, Adrienne said:

 

 

 

[Diva]

8 hours ago, BDJ said:

@Diva do you have any video or links to the show you quoted (or even the dogs)? - sounds amazing and I would love to have a look.  ta

 

Parts of it were live streamed on fb but I don’t have a public link, will see if I can find anything and message you. I know the official photos aren’t out yet. 
But I assume most breed nationals over there have a similar mix of performance, companion and show, it’s a minority breed so it’s one of the smaller and less fancy ones I think. It has 2 sorts of lure coursing, straight racing, rally, obedience, puppy and veteran sweepstakes, stud dog and brood bitch, dual champion stakes, futurity, brace and team classes,  triathlon, junior showmanship, the big main show, some seminars inc health and judges training, awards dinner, fundraising auction of collectibles, vendor stalls, national breed club general meeting and a fancy dress parade. I’ve seen parades of companion dogs/rescues in the past, not sure if that’s always there. Often there are health clinics (eye, heart, thyroid) and a company comes that can collect semen for freezing.
Oh and lots of socialising, lol. 

Edited May 1, 2023 by Diva

[Adrienne]

9 hours ago, coneye said:

i  myself wanted to buy an older dog , weve had too many houses chewed to bits from  pups we don't want to go through it again , only problem i had and the reason  we never got one is because my breed of choice Rottys

Well coneye, have you considered changing your breed preference? ?You could give Spanner a go! An Aussie Terrier is a game little dog in a handy sized body. I could see him on a boat 

[coneye]

2 hours ago, Adrienne said:

Well coneye, have you considered changing your breed preference? ?You could give Spanner a go! An Aussie Terrier is a game little dog in a handy sized body. I could see him on a boat 

Thanks but no thanks , i will say if i was to ever get another small dog a aussie it would be , we had one yers ago great dog ,  but  being a terrier , he done what terriers do , dug under the fence , went ito the neigbors yard   and in there shed , there he ate a hearty meal of rat poison  ,   you know the terrible result .He was actually the first small dog i ever owned , but i often forget about him because we only had him a few months  , the one i have now is the second small dog , and too be honest has much has i love him , i've never bonded with him has much has my wife has .

Has much has i love terriers  on the housboat is excatly where you need a dog/ breed  who is less inclined to wander or get too  independent and  chase a roo , go wandering  and scrumaging  and snake bit .  not to mention see a sheep and want to play with it .  know matter how much i rack my brains , i keep coming back to the dog  being the best for my lifestyle  would have to be a rotty or a mastiff .  had two rottys before and they were both perfect for me anyway , both were aloof  yet freindly , both never bothered with other dogs ,  both would'nt leave my side  to wander  they were perfect , mind you the little one we got now is like that ,  but definetly not a hardy dog , and night time he will not go off the boat he gets scared unles i take him  lol

Edited May 1, 2023 by coneye