Thoughtful article on brachy breeding and vet responsibility

[sandgrubber]

https://cgejournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40575-023-00126-z

 

Concluding paragraph:

 

The time has come to examine all breeds and dogs in the light of current science, morals, and ethics; to look at aspects of conformation, genetics (e.g. coefficients of inbreeding), health and welfare and ensure that future generations of dogs will be healthier and have better welfare. Any approach taken should not be about vilifying the past. Progress can only be achieved if we are armed with the right scientific evidence – together with a healthy dose of common sense—and if kennel and breed clubs work together and collectively and collaboratively with veterinarians, researchers, and legislators.

[tdierikx]

6 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

a healthy dose of common sense

Amen to that!

 

T.

[Loving my Oldies]

6 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

Concluding paragraph:

 

The time has come to examine all breeds and dogs in the light of current science, morals, and ethics; to look at aspects of conformation, genetics (e.g. coefficients of inbreeding), health and welfare and ensure that future generations of dogs will be healthier and have better welfare. Any approach taken should not be about vilifying the past. Progress can only be achieved if we are armed with the right scientific evidence – together with a healthy dose of common sense—and if kennel and breed clubs work together and collectively and collaboratively with veterinarians, researchers, and legislators.

Confession - I haven't read the whole thing, just this paragraph.  Sorry to be such a Casssandra, but none of this is going to happen in any area of our lives, in the world today.  People want, people demand, people going to get by whatever means possible and bugger anyone or any morality that gets in the way.  

 

Aren't I cheerful, but when we can't even look after babies and children known to be in danger, how do you expect people to care about morality in breeding, training or owning dogs and other animals?  

[sandgrubber]

1 hour ago, Loving my Oldies said:

Confession - I haven't read the whole thing, just this paragraph.  Sorry to be such a Casssandra, but none of this is going to happen in any area of our lives, in the world today.  People want, people demand, people going to get by whatever means possible and bugger anyone or any morality that gets in the way.  

It HAS begun.  A few European countries have regulations limiting the extent to which bracyhcephalic traits are permitted.   And I haven't heard anyone speak favourably about line breeding for many years. 

[asal]

On 09/04/2023 at 4:52 PM, sandgrubber said:

It HAS begun.  A few European countries have regulations limiting the extent to which bracyhcephalic traits are permitted.   And I haven't heard anyone speak favourably about line breeding for many years. 

  vilifying line breeding, inbreeding  as the sole cause the the destruction of so many breeds is completely ignoring the REAL elephant in the room.

 

The bloody show scene where as one so called "top breeder IN THIS COUNTRY" told me to my face.   "Hernias are not a disqualification in the ring. NO WAY will i keep a hernia free puppy if its herniated sibling can beat it in the ring.  In fact I doubt you will find a hernia free cavalier within 12 years!"     

 

That was 20 years ago now.

 

That is the  mindset of far too many of  the Ethical, Responsible, Show breeder.  Wins take precedence over any health issues.

 

Has been ever since showing began.  If a flatter face is winning then even flatter faces will be in the ring soon.  If bigger heads win, the so be it, even if every litter has to be a caesarean.  Generations of Caesarean's. long as the blue ribbons keep coming.  The hall mark of the Ethical, Responsible .. BLUE Ribbons and CHALLEGE CERTIFICATES.

 

But hey, dont blame this on the real cause of all these unhealthy herniated, squashed faced, poppy eyed, genetic disaster ridden beauties.  

 

blame it on line breeding and inbreeding, even when there is no instance of it in the pedigree.    Surely we cant address the real cause can we?

 

the banana backed German shepherd didn't just appear in a flash of light it was morphed although the politically correct words are "improved"   you dont maintain a standard anymore.  you "improve it"

 

so many fail to realise its not the health or well being that is being improved.   Its it ribbon winning chances at any cost.

 

Persian cats had a face once.

 

their faces have been morphed clean off them over the past decades.   has it improved their health?   no way, now they are as Brachycephalic as so many dog breeds . their tear ducts cant work,    

 

who is going to tell me this happened because of line breeding and inbreeding????

 

 

who is going to admit it was the race to win a show that has made these animals lives a misery?

 

 

handed the destruction of all who breed by the AR mob on a platter in the process.

 

 

 

 

 

Blame it on inbreeding. blame it on line breeding,  but never admit the real cause   

 

is going to achieve what?

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by asal

[Amazetl]

What are they so afraid of if they outcross or use the healthiest least squished dogs as breeding to properly ‘better’ the breed health wise? 

 

Are they unsure if their dog breed will change who they are behaviour wise if they bring in another dog breed? Or is it about the public wanting the squishy look? They sure are popular despite all the warnings and how so many of them need thousands and thousands in surgery so they can breathe a little better. 

 

I know some of these dog breeds are very endearing in their characters and I’d guess they don’t want to change that too much. But in the past dogs have been brought back from near extinction by outcrossing and crossing back etc (don’t know the correct terms for it). So why not do more? I guess it seems too big to properly manage/police/keep records etc. 

 

It’s sad that some of the most loved dog breeds are being banned for health in some areas of the world and just are so sick. Poor things. 

[Diva]

Wouldn’t matter what the show people did with French Bulldog selection now, they breed a small % of the breed  -  conformation, colours and coat types are way out of any influence from the show standard. Social influencers have more impact. 

 

Those non-ankc breeders could lengthen faces if they wanted, just as they breed long coats, merle etc.

But they breed what people want to buy, and part of the community want that extreme look even as others seek to condemn it. 
 

(not saying show breeders shouldn’t breed for health, but they are a small part of the dog world when it comes to the commercially popular breeds).

Edited April 10, 2023 by Diva

[Amazetl]

Interesting, that’s a good point. So some sort of policy measures would be the only way to put some sort of stop to it. Guess that’s why they went with the extreme in some other countries. That’s sad because those breeds are so well loved and I’m sure they are very sweet/funny/cute etc. But at the detriment of their health? Probably not fair really to still breed them unless more and more effort is put into improving them health wise. 

[moosmum]

5 hours ago, Diva said:

Wouldn’t matter what the show people did with French Bulldog selection now, they breed a small % of the breed  -  conformation, colours and coat types are way out of any influence from the show standard. Social influencers have more impact. 

 

Those non-ankc breeders could lengthen faces if they wanted, just as they breed long coats, merle etc.

But they breed what people want to buy, and part of the community want that extreme look even as others seek to condemn it. 
 

(not saying show breeders shouldn’t breed for health, but they are a small part of the dog world when it comes to the commercially popular breeds).

 

I think you under estimate the influence the oldest representative body for Dog Breeders has, and has had. If the 'ethical' experts see no need to address the problems, there is no expectation being set to do so. You can't hold the environment responsible for the failures of dogs and breeders by abdicating ANKCs own.

 

7 hours ago, Amazetl said:

What are they so afraid of if they outcross or use the healthiest least squished dogs as breeding to properly ‘better’ the breed health wise? 

 

Are they unsure if their dog breed will change who they are behaviour wise if they bring in another dog breed? Or is it about the public wanting the squishy look? They sure are popular despite all the warnings and how so many of them need thousands and thousands in surgery so they can breathe a little better. 

 

I know some of these dog breeds are very endearing in their characters and I’d guess they don’t want to change that too much. But in the past dogs have been brought back from near extinction by outcrossing and crossing back etc (don’t know the correct terms for it). So why not do more? I guess it seems too big to properly manage/police/keep records etc. 

 

It’s sad that some of the most loved dog breeds are being banned for health in some areas of the world and just are so sick. Poor things. 

 

The constitution of ANKC decided on its formation the make-up of its membership. Thats what a constitution is/does. It provides the objective purpose and properties of the organization or 'body' of its constituent membership. The constitution can only do what its directed to. Its the 'genetic' blue print for the body created.

 

The kennel Clubs were ostensibly created for the purpose of improving Dog Breeding,  using  pedigrees to increase the information available to breeders, to better understand the genetics and back ground of breeding stock used- To understand the foundations being built on in any mating. 

This should have been the creation of an environment where a service is provided to Dog breeders to make use of, and promote the value of doing so through demonstration.ie, the results should speak for themselves. You want the best dog possible for what you will invest in it? One bred with consistent deliberation of its content should afford you the best chance of meeting your expectations. If thats seen to be true, support will follow.

 

The closed stud books and standards have been a huge problem, but one that could and should have have been easily overcome long ago,by informed consensus of membership. What has made this  impossible to achieve in any effective way is the constitution of the body. That was  in-formed  with a belief or bias against the environment it was ostensibly to serve. Dogs and Breeders.

 

An effective constitution has a  clear objective set out to define (give margins and limitation to) its membership or property. It is only concerned with what takes place within the body of its membership, in service to the  objective. It must be that way, to have integrity and viability as a 'body'.

If its margins or definitions are not clear, there is no Objectivity. Objectivity is dependent on disregarding relationship, or there is there is bias.

 

The Kennel clubs were in-formed with the language of the constitution. Language is biological. Its what D.N.A operates with. When the K.Cs made the declaration on their founding documents that they do not recognize cross breed dogs, or dogs not bred according to the  rules and regulations set out in their constitution, The  Objective was corrupted and lost. No longer viable in the long term. The bodies definition is  reduced. Its no longer a clear objective. Its now dependent on a negative bias towards what takes place beyond its own body or definition. 

 

Its not reality. Value is ALWAYS subjective. The Objective has no value. Any value  found in the objective, is  subjective. The K.Cs  applied a value to their objective in a accepting a declaration  contradictory to their objective. It creates a double negative in the language they are founded on. It means the opposite of what was intended and its been operating on this false reality for over 150 years now. Well entrenched and only doing what its programed to do according the language used. An objective must be independent of value, beyond its 'being'. Any declaration or statement regarding what occurs beyond the objective body must corrupt its definition.

 

ANKC objective is not improvement of Dogs, or Breeding practices. According to the language given, its objective is to Standards or  'states' that are recognized by  content, as  present, and verified by certification to contain no 'less' than the content of its own state . An English Bulldog or Pug with a longer nose or healthier physique is no longer a bulldog.  Its an alteration of the state a member has agreed to recognize as one. It can't be rewarded in the ring without the judge facing a backlash supported by the constitution all members agreed to when signing up.  If the pedigree is 'broken' in achieving the healthier version, the backlash must be even worse. Its value or verification is null and void according to ANKC constitution.

 

I don't expect this explanation will make any more difference than than I have achieved in the past, and its damn frustrating to to keep trying when what you are up against is, essentially, Faith. Faith in the Pedigree system to be the only valid representation of a Dog or Breeder, as it stands today.

But I have repeated stated where this must inevitably lead, and how to correct it. And watched as it all comes to pass. I think its too late now to save dogs, unless there was immediate action and I see no sign of that. ANKCs constitution does not allow for recognition of whats beyond their own instruction.

Even when it ensures only destruction.

 

In short, reality depends on proper application of the Objective and Subjective in tandem. When its not correctly applied, The objective reality is not viable.

Its discredited. So Dogs and their Breeders are still going to be discredited to the point of non- existence. There is no clear definition between the objective and subjective values.

[Diva]

I can’t read your posts past the first paragraph Moosmum. But I have not said that there is no historical responsibility nor that ‘experts’ don’t see  a need to address the problems. What I said is that for that breed, in the here and now, the show standard is not the driver anymore.  Nor are show breeders. 

[moosmum]

And I'm saying that no ones driving any more.

No one can or will take up that responsibility.

 

 

Instead, every one shrugs or points the finger at every one else as the car keeps on rolling into the abyss.

Doesn't matter who is driving. It matters that people are encouraged to, with out being thrown out the window for the mess out side as soon as they take the wheel.

 

Never mind. I'm done here. Can't do it, too late.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by moosmum

[sandgrubber]

On 10/04/2023 at 11:43 PM, asal said:

  vilifying line breeding, inbreeding  as the sole cause the the destruction of so many breeds is completely ignoring the REAL elephant in the room.

 

The bloody show scene where as one so called "top breeder IN THIS COUNTRY" told me to my face.   "Hernias are not a disqualification in the ring. NO WAY will i keep a hernia free puppy if its herniated sibling can beat it in the ring.  In fact I doubt you will find a hernia free cavalier within 12 years!"     

 

That was 20 years ago now.

 

That is the  mindset of far too many of  the Ethical, Responsible, Show breeder.  Wins take precedence over any health issues.

 

Has been ever since showing began.  If a flatter face is winning then even flatter faces will be in the ring soon.  If bigger heads win, the so be it, even if every litter has to be a caesarean.  Generations of Caesarean's. long as the blue ribbons keep coming.  The hall mark of the Ethical, Responsible .. BLUE Ribbons and CHALLEGE CERTIFICATES.

 

But hey, dont blame this on the real cause of all these unhealthy herniated, squashed faced, poppy eyed, genetic disaster ridden beauties.  

 

blame it on line breeding and inbreeding, even when there is no instance of it in the pedigree.    Surely we cant address the real cause can we?

 

the banana backed German shepherd didn't just appear in a flash of light it was morphed although the politically correct words are "improved"   you dont maintain a standard anymore.  you "improve it"

 

so many fail to realise its not the health or well being that is being improved.   Its it ribbon winning chances at any cost.

 

Persian cats had a face once.

 

their faces have been morphed clean off them over the past decades.   has it improved their health?   no way, now they are as Brachycephalic as so many dog breeds . their tear ducts cant work,    

 

who is going to tell me this happened because of line breeding and inbreeding????

 

 

who is going to admit it was the race to win a show that has made these animals lives a misery?

 

 

handed the destruction of all who breed by the AR mob on a platter in the process.

 

 

 

 

 

Blame it on inbreeding. blame it on line breeding,  but never admit the real cause   

 

is going to achieve what?

 

 

 

 

Yes, inbreeding is a symptom and breeding to standards (pedigree or market preference) is the cause.   But, as well documented by the Standard Poodle Project, narrowing gene pools, as an outcome of breeding to win shows does create health problems.

http://www.dogenes.com/poodle/poodle.html

 

The Frenchie fad makes it clear that dog shows' emphasis on conformity to a standard appearance, and propensity  to exaggerate of the demarcations of that standard, isn't the whole problem.  Frenchies of no particular pedigree are in high demandand sell for big $.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by sandgrubber

[~Anne~]

18 hours ago, Diva said:

I can’t read your posts past the first paragraph Moosmum. But I have not said that there is no historical responsibility nor that ‘experts’ don’t see  a need to address the problems. What I said is that for that breed, in the here and now, the show standard is not the driver anymore.  Nor are show breeders. 

I agree with this. The driver has changed and so has the vehicle.

 

The culture, purpose and art of the pedigree dog world is now very much in the background and in slow demise. Even though it was always considered a 'hobby' it was the epicentre of the canine world. It was the superpower. Unfortunately (in my perosnal view) through a lack of forward thinking and acceptance of a mature and modern changing market, its being left behind to curl up in a corner and wither away. More's the shame. 

 

 

[Amazetl]

French Bulldogs are so popular, they are one of the most popular on Dogzonline. I personally have never really met one but I hear they are adorable in their nature and quite ‘baby’ like. I think with their smaller but not tiny size, shorter hair, funny oddness abotu them and how silly and little characters that they come across as - makes them so popular. I would say it possibly would be one of the most popular small dogs with men? 

 

There is so much education out there about their health issues now so it’s no excuse. Either people buying them have money to dedicate to their extra care or think it just won’t happen to them. 

 

[sandgrubber]

On 12/04/2023 at 2:32 AM, moosmum said:

And I'm saying that no ones driving any more.

No one can or will take up that responsibility.

 

 

Instead, every one shrugs or points the finger at every one else as the car keeps on rolling into the abyss.

Doesn't matter who is driving. It matters that people are encouraged to, with out being thrown out the window for the mess out side as soon as they take the wheel.

 

Never mind. I'm done here. Can't do it, too late.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It can be different.   I don't know why Finland has taken a different course,  but its Kenel Club takes a strong health and temperament stand in defining "improvement " of the breed.

 

https://www.kennelliitto.fi/en/forms/finnish-kennel-clubs-general-breeding-strategy-2018-2023

 

Objectives
1. Dogs that are used for breeding shall be above the breed average in desired
characteristics in order to achieve genetic improvement.
2. A dog that is suitable for breeding is typical of its breed both in appearance and temperament, and it is free of ailments or characteristics that would make everyday life difficult.
3. A dog that is used for breeding is to its nerves and behaviour one that can
manage situations in everyday life. This way, the probability of the dog’s progeny
to inherit mental traits, that make everyday life difficult and are detrimental to wellbeing, is minimised.
4. The spread of defects and diseases that have a severe impact on the wellbeing of dogs will be prevented. Only clinically healthy dogs can be used for breeding when it comes to diseases that cause pain or discomfort or otherwise restrict the dog's ability to lead a normal life that is typical for the species.
5. Only dogs that can mate naturally and care for their puppies will be used for breeding.
6. Dogs from bloodlines with maximal longevity will be used for breeding. The life length of a dog shall not be unduly prolonged at the expense of its health and wellbeing.
7. The genetic diversity of all breeds will be safeguarded in breeding. Different
individuals of the breed are diversely used for breeding.
8. The Finnish Kennel Club supports and produces activities that aim to increase
knowledge of the heredity, health and diseases of dogs.
9. Cooperation with veterinarians and researchers will be intensified. The actions undertaken by veterinarians also support the principles and objectives of the breeding strategy.
10. The Finnish Kennel Club influences the international community through the
Nordic Kennel Union and the FCI with the aim of promoting greater knowledge of
and competence in dog breeding. Our actions within the international community always set the health and wellbeing of dogs as the most important goals.

Edited April 12, 2023 by sandgrubber
added quotation giving objectives

[moosmum]

Maybe different because theirs was founded by Hunters, using the system to breed more effectively for performance/responsibility rather than presentation.

 

From what I've just researched on them, I'm impressed. Not  what I still want- What is the organizational attitude to breeding of dogs out side of any registry system?

Are these people discouraged from breeding at all, Or encouraged to make use of the same tools and knowledge?

 

Any shift  effective long term is going to depend on improving breeding practices beyond the registries in tandem. That population will prove essential to maintain in healthy condition for dogs to remain accessible and versatile in our communities. 

 

Responsibility is  ability to respond. If people are going to take it, Providing the tools for getting it right gives it. 

Demonstrates the value of getting it right by intention. 

Demonstrates the value of Breeders whos intent that is.

There is no other effective way to show the value of what breeders do, than to encourage them to know it.

Support for Breeders can't be expected if what people  are being offered is too far behind their requirements. The environment of the Organization is  the driver of its direction.

Or its not viable long term.

Like it or not.

Its reality, and biological/evolutionary law.

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by moosmum

[coneye]

Lots of problems here ,  can they be fixed probably not , well not 100% anyway , but if you do want to fix them   how would you do it  by lesgislation probably not , theres too many out there who don't care about rules ,regulations and such , because  the dollars  to easy available , So what would the best way be , . Too be honest i don't know i'm not a breeder    ,i don;t show dogs  i'm just an average guy who has owned dogs all his life , never been without one since i was a 8 year old ,  because they really are mans best freind .  But i do have an opinion ,  some may agree most probably will not , i'll share it anyway ,  so lets talk about the only breed i personaly have had which has been dramaticly affected , , the  GERMAN SHEPARD .

 

I  bought one  around 32 years ago , from a breeder , this breeder had a lot ,  fantastic set up in the country , they all roamed free  on the property and spent most there time swimming in the dam  kennels at night  , Anyway i went and told her i wanted a large one , preferably long haired  , she led me straight to   a  litter and said take your pick ,  this litter was actually cheaper she said ,  , explained to me because  there long haired  and there going to be too big to show  both traits she said didsqalified them from the show ring , , who cares they were great looking dogs , but a couple of other litters she had were  all show quality and she was selling them to show homes only  , i suppose for a premium price i don'y know , Sam cost me $300 

 

Now fast forward  19 years  , Sam died at 18  lived a  long life   i had already   couple years before bought a rotty  and had the 2 dogs  , actually Sam out lived   a staffy who was two when i bought Sam , then a rotty  ,  who only lived 9 years , and     was 14 whan i bought  the second rotty ,  Anyway   point i'm making is this ,   when he went i  thought i'm going to get another GSD  to keep the Naz the rotty company , and i set of looking . and boy was i suprised ,,  even though i live  right in front of a dog beach   and spent  hrs and hrs there , i used too and still do   go down with my rods and fish there ,  always took the dogs and they would  spend 4-5 hrs  running around  and playing , but even though i seen them everyday , i would just think  Sams the best looking shepard that ever comes on here i never noticed the  confirmation was changing ,

 

Anyway , i start looking for another GSD and was i suprised every where i went , the breeder would tell me ,   we breed them Fine  , i failed to understand what that meant , because what i was looking at was not  a big strong sturdy dog   alert and confident  with a striking  posture , i was looking at skinny  ,  jackel looking things with long thin  snouts , banana shaped backs  , and deformed looking back legs , where had all the   big strong dogs gone ,  , i seen dogs that had parents  , who   really were just one step from dragging there back legs , it was terrible  , breeders had changed the definition of a shepard to suit themselves , 

 

YET these dogs were  entering shows , so whats that mean it become acceptable to class a skinny looking jackel with   a banana back  in the shows  has a good example of the breed , and therefore over time educating the uneducated that this is the norm ,, .  now theres a reason for it  what that reason is i can only assume , and i quickly assumed that the reason was money ,    the show scene is clicky ,    not everyone has money to import or buy top dogs , so they changed the  confirmation to suit mary and josie  up the road ,  over time they changed the confirmation of the mighty GSD  , now if  these dogs were to all start losing at the shows and judges insisted , no  hunchbacks with back legs so out of shape the dog can hardly walk , no long skiny snouts  that looked like a fox , and  started awarding medals to good strong healthy dogs , then thats what the breeders would breed , thats what the public would want in a shepard , because lets have it right i bought Sam  32 years ago    and he and his siblings were absolutly perfect examples of a shepard ,  just too big and long haired  so could'nt be shown   and i could'nt find one like him anywher ,

 

If i was to buy another shepard it would have to be a European import ,, but the point i'm making be it pugs , shepards or mastiffs  if the judges  say what the confirmation should be thats what the breeders will follow , ... Just my thought right or wrong  

 

[Amazetl]

Not that I would ever get one or recommend getting one but are backyard bred German Shepherds more straight back or are the show lines leaking out into backyard breeders over the years too? 

 

I tried researching about why they bred for the slanted back that looks so uncomfortable and deformed like. Apparently it’s so they have better gait. For what? Who led this and why did others jump onto it and why are European lines generally the straight backs still? 

 

Also, apparently many German Shepherds these days also have behaviour issues and aggression, according to what I’ve read. It’s such a shame. I’d love to have a well bred one but it’s too scary to think of getting a huge big dog with possibly health issues and aggression issues. 

[Adrienne]

6 hours ago, Amazetl said:

Not that I would ever get one or recommend getting one but are backyard bred German Shepherds more straight back or are the show lines leaking out into backyard breeders over the years too? 

 

This is just weird. What is this saying? On the one hand ANKC breeders are the supposed to be the go-to for a great puppy with provenance, and BYB are supposed to be churning out crap pups with no provenance. But possibly BYB are breeding better dogs because they are not trying to match show standards (which in some breeds are not helping)?

 

 

 

 

[Amazetl]

Not meant to be weird thanks.

 

I have no idea, which is why I was wondering. I was curious as backyard breeders get their dogs somewhere as I was just thinking about whether because byb don’t pay the same attention to their breeding stock whether the sloped back of the German Shepherd had taken over the straight back there too. There was nothing more to read into it at all. I do know that there are ANKC breeders who do only focus on straight back so if anyone wanted one they would be where to look. 

 

Of course byb aren’t going to be better dogs if bred to standard is what is used. I doubt there’s many bybs who do all the relevant health testing etc. But the sloped back does seem to be more popular now. It was not a byb verse ANKC. Just something I was curious to know if the sloped back had become more popular there too. 

 

Edited to add, I can’t think of any breed where byb would be doing a better job because they don’t try to match show standards. I would imagine (not even thinking of health testing etc) that they would be doing a worse job because for many of them it’s about just breeding what they have and how are they going to have the ‘better’ dogs to breed from? 

 

They were not to be compared. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Amazetl