Need Advice - Nervous Dog

[jacci]

Desparate for advice....purchased a chihuahua puppy in December which we had flown from Qld to NSW. He bonded with me within 48 hours however he would not accept anyone else and has pretty much stayed that way ever since. We have engaged a behaviour specialist and have followed all of her suggestions however we have seen little improvement and four weeks ago in consultation with our lovely vet as well as the behaviour specialist have gone done the road of an anti anxiety medication to help reduce his stress levels to a manageable level where we could start again. When we got him he was literally scared of everything and every noise which we have slowly worked through and have seen improvement. He will not accept my husband and basically runs everytime he sees him. He was sold to us with the promise he was a wonderful social dog and comfortable around kids & adults - obviously not true. If i leave the house he shuts down and will not move until i return. he will not eat or drink or respond to my husband and will run from him. My husband does not interact with him (on advice). We have owned 5 dogs over 30 years (including a chihuahua) so we are aware of these special little dogs and their special behaviours but we are really struggling here and it is now at the stage where i am hardly leaving the house and if i do i race through the things I need to do to get home quickly to him....

[Loving my Oldies]

I don't have any specialised advice, I'm sorry, just wishing you all the best.  There will be others more qualified than I to advise you.  Little guy is just a puppy, so hopefully with the right treatment, he will become a happy little soul. 

 

The breeder may not have deliberately lied to you and the puppy might have been traumatised by the plane trip.  It depends a lot on the breeder's facility, whether they knew how to prepare a puppy for a life outside his litter, whether he was given all the appropriate experiences, etc etc.  Breeders don't necessarily do the right thing by their puppies, more interested in a quick sale.  And they can be at the other end of the scale where puppies are wonderfully prepared for life and grow up to be happy, healthy, totally adjusted dogs.  

 

Good luck.  

[Amazetl]

Sorry you are going through this. I know how hard it is to have a very dependent dog. One of my last dogs was similar and would absolute panic when I left the house. It was extremely hard, however he was elderly and I was in a position where I could basically take time off from everything and be with him as much as I could. This was a long time ago so there has been a lot of education and behavioural therapy since then. We did try medication but it didn’t work and didn’t know to try a different sort, etc. 

 

On another note, my current lab who is now a senior came to me by plane (as a puppy) and I believe he was traumatised during the trip. Thankfully there’s no separation anxiety but he does have some other difficulties he’s had his whole life with episodes of hyperactivity and nothing really helping to reach him while he’s in one.

 

It’s probably best to work with a vet behaviourist and if you feel like you need a fresh look then I’d probably decide to try another vet. I’d probably try that approach with a trainer as well. 

 

Do you have another dog? Some dogs come out of their shell when there is another dog or even a dog friend to guide them and see that things really aren’t so scary. My senior Golden was a bit flighty but once she became a big sis to a more confident puppy Golden she has flown out of her shell that it’s amazing to see. 

 

Other than medication and therapy I would look at trying to get the set routine down that helps to relax the most. I’d try stress relief treats and scents. A safe place for him to access, perhaps a crate or similar with the gate off. Maybe a blanket over a desk even. Gentle calming music. Enrichment toys, being very patient, just any new safe experience to build confidence. 

 

I don’t care much for a certain celebrity dog trainer but I do remember once seeing a segment where there was a very fearful dog that lashed out with aggression to its owners. And it turned out the dog was just really scared. So the trainer took the dog for a while and got it trying all these new things, it was more forceful than I’d like but the premise was interesting and the result was good. I’ve seen with my own dogs when they overcome a scary thing and how they then realise it was nothing to be scared about and how proud they are for overcoming it as well as it flowing over in other aspects of their confidence. 

 

Also depending how old he is, there could be fear periods happening. I would try to read as much as I could on this sort of situation and see what people do that helps. Just stay away from any aversive style training. 

 

Dogs pick up greatly on our own feelings and anxieties as well so see if there’s something you’re doing that could be rewarding the scared behaviour, such as offering comfort or sweet words, or even just feeling sad for him, because he’ll be picking up on all that. It can be hard not to offer that comfort and certainly don’t be mean or anything but when they are showing they are scared of something and you go to pick them up and comfort them, it’s reinforcing their behaviour and they think they are meant to act that way and it becomes a cycle. 

 

Just a note on the breeder - it could also be if he was part of a litter or had older dogs around him at their place he was a different dog being able to follow them and look to them for guidance but then not having them anymore and also the potential emotional trauma of being on a plane could now have him not sure of himself or where he fits.

 

All the best.

[jacci]

Thanks for the advice…you name it we have done it…my belief is that he was not socialised when very young. The breeder has said that he was fine with her so it must be something we’ve done. No further conversation with her. As he was 10 months we suspect there may have been a chance he had previously been returned to her. I’m hoping that the meds coupled with retraining will improve his interaction especially with my husband as he is absolutely terrified of him (& he’s the fun one).

[tdierikx]

Generally speaking, dogs tend to live in the moment and don't necessarily reflect on past experiences like we humans do... so it's more likely that this little dog has had quite a struggle after being removed from his mum and/or littermates to a home where he's the only dog. Being a chihuahua puppy, he's freaking TINY, so just imagine what the world actually looks like to him, and give him the space to be himself and to learn to navigate his environment so that he feels safe within it.

 

I'm bemused by the advice that your husband isn't to try to interact with the pup... seriously? Do you and your husband ever share the couch or bed of an evening and watch TV? If so, pup can be on your lap and hubby can be quietly sitting next to you... so pup learns that the big man thing isn't actually as scary as he thinks.

 

I'm not a fan of medicating young (read still maturing) dogs so early in the piece either, but if your little one truly does have an anxious temperament, then medication may help... but he will still need a quiet and non-stressful haven to retreat to when things get overwhelming - does he have a covered crate (den) that he can go to when he wants to be alone?

 

Just some basic suggestions there, forgive me if they have all been tried and failed.

 

T.

[Papillon Kisses]

Welcome, Jacci 

 

Sorry this is long!!
 

I had a chihuahua terrier mix with generalised anxiety disorder, noise sensitivity and canine compulsive disorder (dog equivalent of OCD). When I first got him he was scared of men like your little one… lots of rushing and barking then hiding behind people or under furniture. With force free training, and anxiety treatment from a Behaviour Vet, he made huge progress and came to love my husband in particular. The instructions included having all men ignore him initially - no talking to, looking at or touching him.

 

From what you’ve said it sounds like you are probably in good hands with your dog trainer and vet, though as Amazetl said seeing a Behaviour Vet can be a good idea if you want a second opinion. They’re like seeing a psychiatrist rather than a general practitioner.
 

Do keep in contact with your prescribing vet too so they can monitor his response to medications and modify them if need be - sometimes different doses, combinations or medications are needed. Depending on the medications/s prescribed don’t expect a quick response either; some take up to 6-8 weeks to fully kick in. But if you and he are really struggling there are short-acting meds that can be prescribed alongside those ones to get the panic level down quicker.

 

Regarding medicating young dogs and pups. Early intervention gets the best response vs waiting until later. It was explained to me that a lot of synaptic pruning goes on when they’re young and they can nudge it in the right direction with medication. And being on meds for life is totally fine, but when you get in early you also have a greater chance of being able to reduce or stop them as they get older.
 

I recommend keeping a short diary to track how things are going. For two reasons. When you’re living this day in day out it can be difficult to notice improvement until you zoom out and realise how far you’ve come, so it can help boost morale on those harder days to see it. And it can help guide your vet as to whether the medication is helping as it should.

 

Please don’t give your dog any anxiety supplements without running them by your prescribing vet. Adaptil is fine since it’s just a scent, but combining e.g. tryptophan treats with anxiety medication can lead to serotonin syndrome.

 

I wouldn’t get a second dog especially with a puppy. Spend your time and money helping your little guy feel better. A second dog can make the first more anxious, or result in two dogs with behavioural issues which is much more work.

That you can reinforce anxiety by comforting your dog is another one of those dog behaviour myths. Emotions drive behaviour, and we cannot reinforce anxiety by comforting a dog. On the contrary, ignoring a dog who is seeking comfort can make them feel more anxious, and when we help them feel better their behaviour can change in turn! So please comfort your little one if they seek it. Be their secure base.

 

I highly recommend K9 Nose Work for confidence building. It was amazing for our Chihuahua, particularly with his OCD and neophobia. You do need the right instructor and class as when anxiety is involved not all can be suitable. I’ve been to classes all over Sydney and greater Sydney if you’d like a recommendation. I would never recommend taking an anxious dog away from their safe person and flooding it with triggers.

 

Here’s a video re calming fearful dogs and how it’s not reinforcing anxiety.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Papillon Kisses

[Amazetl]

Just to clarify, I don’t advocate ignoring a scared dog or just leaving their presence. I was referring to the more baby talk and reinforcing the behaviour. I’m sure it’s helpful to sit with them and pet them etc. 

 

I definitely wouldn’t suggest anyone leave their dog with a trainer. But you can get some interesting ideas watching training videos that as long as it’s not aversive can’t hurt to try. The video I saw was aversive but tweaking it could be beneficial. We all like to grow our confidence and it’s great to have guidance from human who has patience. 

 

Lastly, I also wouldn’t advise getting a second dog when you are struggling so much. However dogs can learn from one another in a way that can be different to what we can do. If you have a stable dog friend around it can be helpful with some dogs. I myself got a puppy when my girl was much older and stable - I respected and accepted that she was a dog who liked being more in her shell and since she didn’t have anxiety I just thought that was who she was. And I was very surprised to start with when she didn’t accept the puppy but over months grew to love puppy and learn how fun puppy is and what a little explorer puppy is and it’s brought her out of her shell in a way I didn’t realise she was so in her shell. That is amazing to see, when another dog can bring out confidence and stability in another dog in a different way than we can. 

 

I’ve read now the pup was an older pup when you got him. That could change things a lot as I was imagining him to be 8 weeks old or so when you got him. It could be that if he was all that time at the breeder he already had his life set up most likely with other dogs he’d known since day 1. It could all be a bit much and it’s only been two months which is still pretty new really. Equally if he’s had some different homes throughout that time he could also be confused or missing someone or a part of his life before. They do live in the moment but also they know what they know/what they’re exposed to early on. 

 

Maybe he was kennelled even and isn’t used to a house arrangement. It could all be so big for him. It does sound like a high possibility of a socialisation situation, or perhaps even having a scary experience with a deeper voiced man etc. 

[jacci]

Thankyou everyone for all your advice…just to clarify when I said No interaction with my husband..I meant no forced interaction. Walks by Monte dropping a treat etc 3 second touch rule..he can sit with us on lounge etc…but if I get up he’s jumping off with me. He literally cowers with my husband & I can assure you all my husband has never raised his voice or hand to him. All meds are through our vet & I initially said no but after she explained that we needed to reduce stress levels to get him to a level stage so we could hopefully change his responses to triggers etc..with the strategy put in place by the behavioural specialist. We thought having a friends small poodle here for a few hours on a regular basis who is the most loving dog might help Monte understand that my husband is ok as dogs often learn by association. 

[persephone]

11 hours ago, Amazetl said:

perhaps even having a scary experience with a deeper voiced man etc. 

I thought of this scenario- or maybe he was not used to men at all? 

[Rebanne]

could you please clarify the age of the dog? You said puppy, which to me is quite young, then 10 months old.

[Mairead]

He's not necessarily had bad experiences, just no previous experiences with men who look, smell, sound and move like your husband. Getting puppies (or previously isolated dogs) used to the wide world is a lot of work, I always took leave from work to do it. I was lucky I lived not far from a fire station, a Hell's Angel's clubhouse and a regional airport. There are checklists for socialisation or you can make your own as part of your diary eg man in uniform, with glasses, with walking stick etc. but no forced interaction sounds like good advice to me. 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Mairead

[Loving my Oldies]

18 hours ago, tdierikx said:

Generally speaking, dogs tend to live in the moment and don't necessarily reflect on past experiences like we humans do...

 

That is a strange comment, @tdierikx.  Dogs might not sit around thinking, "OMG a man was dreadful to me in the past, this is a man, ergo, he will be dreadful to me."  But they are influenced, why else would some dogs be afraid and some not of the same situation?  

 

Same as intergenerational trauma.  And PTSD.  '

 

And I am one who firmly believes that dogs are like humans (we are animals too) in that we are all born with different personalities, characters, prone to fears, love all things dangerous, etc etc.    

[jemappelle]

Google 'fear periods in dogs" and it might help you.  My Cavalier (and myself) had a bad scare from a child at some markets when she was about 12 months old. Ever since then she has been very wary of kids and recently we were at a venue where some kids were running around, screaming.  My poor little dog started growling and we quickly left.

[tdierikx]

1 hour ago, Loving my Oldies said:

why else would some dogs be afraid and some not of the same situation?

 

1 hour ago, Loving my Oldies said:

And I am one who firmly believes that dogs are like humans (we are animals too) in that we are all born with different personalities, characters, prone to fears, love all things dangerous, etc etc.

 

I think you just answered your own question there LMO... *grin*

 

But I respectfully disagree that other species are anything like humans in the way they process the world around them... based on my own (and observing others) interactions with many more species than just dogs or cats.

 

Yes... animals ARE sentient and experience feelings - just in a different way from us - but for us to be projecting our own human thoughts and feelings onto them is just a recipe for disaster in the long run. We need to allow different species to be exactly what they were born to be, and if that includes interacting with us, then we need to be mindful of not only the similarities we share, but the differences too.

 

T.

[Loving my Oldies]

Apart from the fact that my question was simply rhetoric, I think you missed my point, @tdierikx.  You were saying that dogs don't reflect on past experiences.  I am saying that I am sure they don't, but they are influenced by past experiences and this affects their day to day behaviours.  I am living with one who is severely traumatised by past experiences.  All she knows is that she is frightened and reacts accordingly, despite never had anything but love and kindness since coming here.  

 

And I wasn't referring to other animals, just dogs and humans.  That is another conversation and millions of words entirely.   

 

 

 

[jacci]

From what I understand Monte lived on a remote property before we purchased him. I’m guessing his only interaction was with his female owner but according to the ad..on this website he was fully socialised with adults & children which I believe was untrue. He arrived to us on December 4 2022 his first Birthday was on 3 March 2023…however I’m determined that his past will not shape his future 

[jacci]

1 minute ago, jacci said:

From what I understand Monte lived on a remote property before we purchased him. I’m guessing his only interaction was with his female owner but according to the ad..on this website he was fully socialised with adults & children which I believe was untrue. He arrived to us on December 4 2022 his first Birthday was on 3 March 2023…however I’m determined that his past will not shape his future 

 

[Mairead]

8 hours ago, jacci said:

…however I’m determined that his past will not shape his future 

Good on you!

I can imagine that you are now grading your relatives, friends, neighbours and acquaintances from quiet and animal savvy to boisterous and clueless before you send out the invitations and cordon off the places they are not yet allowed to enter.

Also you now have the opportunity to educate others about the importance of early puppy experiences and how to interrogate breeders.