Need information on calming products

[Kazm]

Over Christmas we installed a security camera and it’s been very interesting to see what Molly does when we are out. Over the break we were looking after a friends 2 dogs and all was fine. No mischief, no noise. Today I’ve been out and Molly is now on her own and it’s obvious she stresses. Initially she barked for about 15 mins and then it was just a bark on and off. Not too much after the initial barking. The camera is connected to an app on my phone so I could listen. I’m not happy about it as I don’t want the neighbours complaining etc. Since coming home I’ve  been looking at ways to calm her down. What would you all recommend? While I was out I stopped at Petbarn and spoke to a woman there. She seemed quite knowledgeable. She recommended B Calm. Thoughts? I didn’t buy anything as I wanted to research first. 

[Loving my Oldies]

@Kazm, just over a year ago, I adopted two Pekingese sisters who were from a puppy farm.  They are both totally gorgeous and very very funny.  They are not generally nervous except one of them predicts storms hours away and the other is nervous about going to the grooming.  I have Trazadone on hand for these sorts of situations.  Just a tiny bit of a pill given two hours before the event (eg before you have to go out) and it works for several hours. 

 

Of course, you can also go out and get Molly a couple of permanent siblings - LOL.  

[Mairead]

What sort of bark was it?

If this is the first time she's been vocal when left, she might just be hoping her friends will come back if she calls them and may get used to the previous situation.

Do you already do the behavioural stuff that's suggested to treat, or prevent, separation anxiety: low key departures and arrivals, radio left on, item of clothing with your scent, chew toys etc. ?

 

[Deeds]

I also keep Trazadone on hand for stressful vet visits etc.  I give it to my dog an hour prior to consult appt.

[Kazm]

Thankyou for all your replies so far. 
 

LMO I did actually but only very briefly think of your suggestion for a few permant siblings. 
 

Mairead, this is definitely not the first time. I knew to some extent that she was like this. Our previous house had a granny flat that my mil use to live in and she’d tell us but it wasn’t all the time. The bark is an anxious one. And yes we do low key departures etc. and she’s left inside so has all her toys, bedding etc. 

 

Im really looking for something in the way of a natural remedy. We arent keen on using any drugs that may make her drowsy etc. I just want her calm. And quiet.

[Loving my Oldies]

51 minutes ago, Kazm said:

 Im really looking for something in the way of a natural remedy. We arent keen on using any drugs that may make her drowsy etc. I just want her calm. And quiet.

I don't notice any change in terms of drowsiness or "not quite there" with my dogs when I give them Trazadone, but I understand you wish to find something natural.  The problem with those sorts of agents is that they take a long time to have any effect.  

[Little Gifts]

For quite a while we were using Vetalogica Tranquil chews for dogs for Stussy's Sundowners. We also tried Adaptil (collar and plug in) but no real change. But the Vetalogica worked for her and whenever we ran out after about 2 days off it she was definately more angsty. I got mine from Pet Circle. They are like a piece of kibble. Stussy was around 16kg and had 2 with brekkie and 2 with dinner.

[Kazm]

LG did using the Vetalogica change any other part of Stussy ‘s personality? Was she her usual self other than not so angsty? I’m just concerned as Molly is such a happy funny lively little girl and I don’t want this part of her to change. Just need the anxiety to tone down. And the only time she shows anxiety is when we go out.

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Kazm

[Rebanne]

Have a look at McDowells herbal remedies. https://www.mcdowellsherbal.com/

[Little Gifts]

1 hour ago, Kazm said:

LG did using the Vetalogica change any other part of Stussy ‘s personality? Was she her usual self other than not so angsty? I’m just concerned as Molly is such a happy funny lively little girl and I don’t want this part of her to change. Just need the anxiety to tone down. And the only time she shows anxiety is when we go out.

 

Stussy was her crazy, weirdo, into everything self while on it (maybe the last 1.5 years?). It just lessened the Sundowners carry on and duration. She'd still wander inside and pant but much less intense than before and less dragging around of the dogs beds and being right underfoot and rarely going outside with it. Before she would wander the whole yard with no purpose in mind. So still the same dog (positives and negatives) but the negatives were a lot less intense and shorter in duration. She was happier and more balanced on them but not doped out at all.

[Papillon Kisses]

7 hours ago, Kazm said:

Im really looking for something in the way of a natural remedy. We arent keen on using any drugs that may make her drowsy etc. I just want her calm. And quiet.

I’m sorry to hear about Molly’s separation distress. I hear you with not wanting her to be drowsy etc. The good thing about modern anxiety medications is that you’re less likely to see that, or if you do it is usually a temporary side effect while their body adjusts. The aim is rarely to sedate; we want dogs to be aware, so they can learn that absences aren’t terrifying. Therefore if they’re zonked, or their personality changes for the worse, it’s a sign that it is the wrong medication or dose for the individual. I say change for the worse, as we’re not our true ourselves when riddled with anxiety. From everything I’ve seen not just with Malcolm but also hundreds of dogs in support groups I’ve been part of, treating anxiety enables our dogs personalities to shine. Most people wish they had taken the leap sooner. 

 

There are some supplements that have an evidence-base, like Zylkene for example or pheromone therapy with Adaptil. However, be aware that supplements aren’t regulated, so quality control can be an issue and many claim to do things they do not. Some cause side effects, and are contraindicated for dogs with certain conditions or taking certain medications. And when they do help it’s typically for mild to moderate stress, whereas separation anxiety is considered a panic disorder. Your best bet is to see a Behaviour Vet or a GP vet with a special interest in behaviour. They can give her a checkup (being in any sort of pain for example can contribute to the problem), consider her medical history and needs, and together you can decide on the path forward, whether that is a prescription medication/s and/or a specific supplement recommended for her.
 

Alongside this you’re going to want to look at:

- Management, ideally suspending all absences while you work on the problem. This can require some creativity but it is important.

- A behaviour modification (training) plan to systematically desensitise to absences.

- It doesn’t sound like you are but just in case you hear it, there’s no need to withdraw affection or ignore her, including when coming or going, or banishing her from the lounge or bed if you snuggle together etc. That’s outdated advice and can increase anxiety. Just be calm and soothing.

 

I’m going to shower you in links now so I hope that’s ok.  
 

If you’re lucky there might be a slot in the All Pets Education & Training Separation Struggles course that starts tomorrow night.
https://www.allpetseducationandtraining.com.au/separation-struggles---12-week-virtual-course.html

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02N5uuYT1ie8UgaVPLp1tJUUYcMM6vDGbNC8iMY7S4H9jNvyahHyeEn8JtYbJmESvUl&id=100063582608856&mibextid=qC1gEa

Malena DeMartini’s content

https://malenademartini.com/separation-anxiety-top-10-list/

https://www.facebook.com/SeparationAnxietyDogs?mibextid=LQQJ4d

There are some CSATs in Australia, Jenny Harlow and Dog Charming being two of them.

https://www.dogcharming.com.au

https://jhdogtraining.com.au/separation-anxiety/

 

https://www.puppyleaks.com/second-dog-separation-anxiety/

Episode 4 of this podcast, which has things you can do right now while home with Molly.

https://www.creativeanimalsolutions.com/abd-podcast.html

 

https://www.anzcvs.org.au/chapters/veterinary+behaviour+chapter

https://www.drjensdogblog.com/behavior-medication-first-line-therapy-or-last-resort/

 

I hope this helps. You’re welcome to message me if you’d like help re choosing a behaviour vet if you go down that path… there is one in Queensland who I would avoid.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Papillon Kisses

[Kazm]

Thanks PK. Zylkene was one product that I was interested in. However I was planning on discussing things with the vet anyway. I’m not going to argue or disagree with you as I’m definitely no expert but I’m thinking she’s a mild case as while I was out yesterday I was watching and listening via my phone and after roughly 15mins she went quiet and settled down with just the odd bark here and there. And that wasn’t the anxious bark that she’d started with, more like she heard something. 
Just had another thought, yesterday was actually the first time Molly had been left alone after 3 weeks. I was looking after other dogs, so she had company full time and looking at the camera then it was totally quiet. And during those 3 weeks my husband was on holidays and we were doing yard work virtually the whole time so there was something happening all the time. I do know she has been like this before though as I’ve said in my earlier post hence why I’m considering options but I’m not rushing into anything. More research, more monitoring. But PK I will definitely look through all the links you’ve sent and I still look forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts. It’s all been very helpful. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Kazm

[sheena]

18 hours ago, Little Gifts said:

For quite a while we were using Vetalogica Tranquil chews for dogs for Stussy's Sundowners. We also tried Adaptil (collar and plug in) but no real change. But the Vetalogica worked for her and whenever we ran out after about 2 days off it she was definately more angsty. I got mine from Pet Circle. They are like a piece of kibble. Stussy was around 16kg and had 2 with brekkie and 2 with dinner.

My boy hates thunderstorms & can detect them coming even before there is any rumbling.  I give him  Vetalogica chews (2) plus I have a wide cloth collar that I spray with Adaptil.  It seems to work.  He is still a bit stressed but he doesn't want to chase & bark at it anymore.  Just hides away in my bedroom.  He feels secure in there apparantly

[Mairead]

Do you think a dog can be encouraged to develop separation anxiety?

I ask because recently I heard about an owner who patted the dog for hours at a time and I wondered whether it was after the dog had requested it. I was told the owner doesn't ever ('discipline' was the word used but I assume 'show leadership' might also be lacking). I have since read this breed (Havanese) can be prone to separation anxiety. 

 

PK thanks for all those links.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Mairead

[jemappelle]

One of my Cavs is very full on and a bit highly strung.  They always know when I am going out and get excited because of two things.  Firstly it means they are going with me or secondly, they are going to get a treat!  I started doing this after she became an only dog.  The first time I left her I could hear her inside, barking anxiously.  It worked for me but she is very food driven!  A give something that will keep her occupied long enough for me to be gone.  

[Mairead]

I also had only-if-I'm-leaving treats that seemed to work well.

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Mairead

[Kazm]

Jemappelle, I was actually considering that idea. Plus the woman I spoke with yesterday suggested licki mats. Molly is extremely food driven and it appears she just carries  on initially. I could give the treat idea a go. My only thought is that she’d finish it very quickly though but it’s certainly worth a shot. 

[Dogsfevr]

6 hours ago, Mairead said:

Do you think a dog can be encouraged to develop separation anxiety?

I ask because recently I heard about an owner who patted the dog for hours at a time and I wondered whether it was after the dog had requested it. I was told the owner doesn't ever ('discipline' was the word used but I assume 'show leadership' might also be lacking). I have since read this breed (Havanese) can be prone to separation anxiety. 

 

PK thanks for all those links.

Any breed can get sep anxiety especially as many owners do not treat there dogs as animals & do everything for them or take them everywhere never teaching them life skills to be a independent & happy on there own when required .
Some dogs that always had a mate may have rellied on that dog for its confidence.

Some breeds are certtainly more velcro but good owners set them up for successs  

[Papillon Kisses]

12 hours ago, Mairead said:

Do you think a dog can be encouraged to develop separation anxiety?

I ask because recently I heard about an owner who patted the dog for hours at a time and I wondered whether it was after the dog had requested it. I was told the owner doesn't ever ('discipline' was the word used but I assume 'show leadership' might also be lacking). I have since read this breed (Havanese) can be prone to separation anxiety. 

 

PK thanks for all those links.

 

That caregivers cause separation anxiety by loving on the dog too much (and it’s counterpart that you need to break the bond to treat it), is one of the biggest most horrible myths about the condition.  Learning history and environment can play a part in whether it’s triggered, but separation anxiety specialists place the greatest weight on genetics - a genetic marker has even been found.

 

Triggers could be things like a traumatic kennel stay, the house being burgled or a bad storm occurring while home alone, a loved one (human or fellow pet) dying, or a change of schedule or living arrangements. Dogs should be gradually taught to be home alone, too. If they have never had any time by themselves and then their humans are suddenly gone for hours on end, that can trigger it in the susceptible.

 

However, breeders and caregivers can do all the right things, the dog may have had no traumatic experiences, and they still develop separation anxiety. And some dogs have had every single thing set against them in life and yet are the picture of behavioural health! I think many forget too that there are millions of ‘velcro’ dogs that don’t have separation distress, and that dogs who are very independent when their person is around can still have separation distress.

 

“Discipline” is often a euphemism for the use of +punishment. The use of aversive training methods impairs learning and risks the development of anxiety and aggression, particularly aggression towards the handler. It also dramatically increases the likelihood of being surrendered and of behavioural euthanasia.

 

I think these ideas are often rooted in misogyny and ableism, but that’s another discussion and I’m not accusing you of either of those things.
 

I have a feeling you’ll enjoy the website below. It has easily digestible science reporting and then you can then click through to see the studies being discussed.

https://www.companionanimalpsychology.com/p/home.html?m=1

Edited January 24, 2023 by Papillon Kisses

[Papillon Kisses]

16 hours ago, Kazm said:

Thanks PK. Zylkene was one product that I was interested in. However I was planning on discussing things with the vet anyway. I’m not going to argue or disagree with you as I’m definitely no expert but I’m thinking she’s a mild case as while I was out yesterday I was watching and listening via my phone and after roughly 15mins she went quiet and settled down with just the odd bark here and there. And that wasn’t the anxious bark that she’d started with, more like she heard something. 
Just had another thought, yesterday was actually the first time Molly had been left alone after 3 weeks. I was looking after other dogs, so she had company full time and looking at the camera then it was totally quiet. And during those 3 weeks my husband was on holidays and we were doing yard work virtually the whole time so there was something happening all the time. I do know she has been like this before though as I’ve said in my earlier post hence why I’m considering options but I’m not rushing into anything. More research, more monitoring. But PK I will definitely look through all the links you’ve sent and I still look forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts. It’s all been very helpful. 

You are very welcome. I think my main points are not to think that natural automatically means safe, appropriate or effective; or to fear or delay medication if it’s needed. When anxiety disorders go untreated or under-treated a lot of really bad stuff can happen that I wouldn’t want for you and Molly.

 

Let us know how you get on at the vet. When you look at your video check for the more quiet or subtle signs of stress too. I hadn’t realised for example that Malcolm wasn’t sleeping nearly enough until our behaviour vet pointed it out. He was hyper vigilant even at rest.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Papillon Kisses