Puppy stopped suckling ? Wont suckle anymore ? Stopped at 7 days old

[asal]

o gee tube feeding is hard as tdierikx said.

 

so hard to be sure its in the right place, I hope the vet shows you properly how to do it. no second chances if u get it wrong

 

[jjj8]

Guys i got fenugreek how much should i give my dog ? She only weighs 2.8 kgs. 

The tables are 1000mg each but i can open them up 

[jjj8]

Hey

12 hours ago, Boronia said:

@jjj8 the fenugreek seeds are also available at health food shops and Asian or Indian grocers and in capsule form at Chemist Warehouse. A  list of where to buy in this linkie here

about 1 teaspoon of seeds to 1 cup boiling water, let steep or 5--10 minutes then strain off the seeds. if you have one of those little one cup tea strainers/balls that you can put the seeds into they are good

Hey i got some from chemist warehouse. I got the capulse form . How much a day should i give my dog ? Shes only 2.8kgs . 1 capsule a day ? They are 1000mg each. I can open them up and give hlf a day if i need to

[Boronia]

What does the info on the bottle say?...are the contents just powdered fenugreek or are those capsules an extract that has been dried? (much stronger than straight powdered seeds)

What is indicated on the bottle the dosage rate for children?

 

 

Here is some dog dosage info:

Some info on dosages...I have put into italics the dosage

a paragraph from this dog site https://pokydogs.org/how-much-fenugreek-to-give-a-dog/

 

Fenugreek for dogs milk production: Does Fenugreek Increase Breast Milk In Dogs?

Yes! A study carried out shows that fenugreek improves the percentage of the milk a dam will produce to up to 16%.

 

Fenugreek is often the breeder’s choice to supplement their lactating dam’s minerals and milk. Also, after whelping, if the milk is not as sufficient as expected, fenugreek is used. This practice has been on for ages. It helps lactating mothers produce more milk which is why it’s considered a galactagogue.

 

The fenugreek dosage for dog milk production is one tablespoon two times daily of powdered fenugreek seeds.

 

and from here--> https://greenpet.com.au/product/fenugreek-powder/

This is a screenshot of the dosage of Greenpet powder

 

that picture is on the Greenpet link

To be safe it may be best to give the mum 2.5g

Fenugreek Powder Dosage :

Cats / small dogs 1 to 2 teaspoons daily

Med dogs: 1 to 2 Tablespoons daily

Large dogs: 2 Tablespoons daily

 

[jjj8]

18 minutes ago, Boronia said:

What does the info on the bottle say?...are the contents just powdered fenugreek or are those capsules an extract that has been dried? (much stronger than straight powdered seeds)

What is indicated on the bottle the dosage rate for children?

 

 

Here is some dog dosage info:

Some info on dosages...I have put into italics the dosage

a paragraph from this dog site https://pokydogs.org/how-much-fenugreek-to-give-a-dog/

 

Fenugreek for dogs milk production: Does Fenugreek Increase Breast Milk In Dogs?

Yes! A study carried out shows that fenugreek improves the percentage of the milk a dam will produce to up to 16%.

 

Fenugreek is often the breeder’s choice to supplement their lactating dam’s minerals and milk. Also, after whelping, if the milk is not as sufficient as expected, fenugreek is used. This practice has been on for ages. It helps lactating mothers produce more milk which is why it’s considered a galactagogue.

 

The fenugreek dosage for dog milk production is one tablespoon two times daily of powdered fenugreek seeds.

 

and from here--> https://greenpet.com.au/product/fenugreek-powder/

This is a screenshot of the dosage of Greenpet powder

 

that picture is on the Greenpet link

To be safe it may be best to give the mum 2.5g

Fenugreek Powder Dosage :

Cats / small dogs 1 to 2 teaspoons daily

Med dogs: 1 to 2 Tablespoons daily

Large dogs: 2 Tablespoons daily

 

I got this one from chemist warehouse

all it says is adult takes 1 tab 3 times a day .. 

Maybe ill.give her hlf a tab a day ? 

[jjj8]

An update on everything and ill answer everyone in this post with some questions 

I want to thank everyone for taking their time and helping the advice has helped 

Things seem to be going good now 

 

I tried tube feeding once yesterday then when I went to feed again i kept getting resistance so kept pulling the tube out and decided to try syringe and he took it. So im not going to tube feed i got way to paranoid and stressed didnt want to kill him

It takes me about 1 hr to syringe feed them both and make them pee and poo. 

 

Ive used the directions off the warnbo milk replacement and dividend the feeding recommendation by 8 and doing feedings every 3 hrs somtimes 2 hrs with a lower dose

 

The mum had some milk come out only a bit so i called the vet and said should i pick up the maxalon tabs ? They said yes so now she gets a quater of a tab a day . 

 

I also brought fenugreek just tyrna fugure out how much to give a day .

Each capsule it says has : dry seed extract 250mg from 1000mg fenugreek. Its the one from chemist warehouse natures own brand

 

Little one has made progress in weight which im happy about. Other guy is way bigger and seems to make bigger weight increases but like somone mentioned here one might always be bigger ( the bigger one was 5 grams heaiver at birth btw ) 

But both are gaining weight. 

One thing i noticed because i weigh them after every feeding when i come to the next feeding usually the bigger guy is heaiver which makes me assume he is sucking some milk from mum and maybe the weaker just doesnt suck hard enough? I definitely see them both sucking on her now even though she barly has anything

 

Ill see in the next couple of days if the maxalon works but since ill also be giving fenugreek now if milk production happens i dunno which would of caused it 

 

I feed them with syringe it just seems easier then the bottle. I squeeze some let them swallow and go again. 

 

My questions : 

- im not going to tube feed again i got too paranoid but if i made a mistake yesterday i would of known by now right or i will know by tomorrow? Because i put 7 mls in him and he seems fine. 

 

- is it okay if dogs dont poop after every single feeding ? I can get them to pee after every feeding but not poo

 

- if the bigger boy seems to gain sufficient weight daily then i should not supplement him ? I wouldn't want to feed him too much and he gets the runs.

 

- for the weaker one should i feed him more then whats recommend on the warnbo milk replacement? Or would i risk giving him the runs that way ? He currently weights 341 grams and im giving him about 8mls every 3 hrs.

 

- even tho bigger one seems to make bigger weight increases aslong as smaller one also makes progress daily its okay yeah ?

 

- if i put honey in the milk how much should i put just a tiny bit ? The honey wont cause any negative effects make them sick or anything ? 

 

- once pups are 3 weeks old even tho ive organised with my sister to feed them can they go one 8 hr stretch and i leave them some food to lap ? Or would that be okay at 3.5 weeks or 4 weeks ? Just so i have an idea ? 

 

- somthing the vet nurse told me is if i cant get no one to feed them while i go to work is i can buy a small crate and a wheat heat pad put them in there and feed them during my work breaks ? Only issue would be if its a hot day because ill have to put them in the car . I dont think this idea would work what do you guys think ? The other thing is i wouldn't be able to make them poo and wee in that situation 

 

Thank you everyone for your help !!!

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by jjj8

[Rebanne]

I wouldn't put honey in the milk. 

At 3 weeks they could go the 8 hours, not ideal though. I also wouldn't leave food out, if Mum doesn't eat it it could go off. Don't take them to work. They do start toileting themselves when they start walking around. Each pup, with enough food, will follow their own weight path. Doesn't matter if it's maxalon or fenugreek or something else entirely if it helps mumma make more milk. Offer her lots of drinks. Fluid makes milk.

Hang in there, you've got this

[jjj8]

1 hour ago, Rebanne said:

I wouldn't put honey in the milk. 

At 3 weeks they could go the 8 hours, not ideal though. I also wouldn't leave food out, if Mum doesn't eat it it could go off. Don't take them to work. They do start toileting themselves when they start walking around. Each pup, with enough food, will follow their own weight path. Doesn't matter if it's maxalon or fenugreek or something else entirely if it helps mumma make more milk. Offer her lots of drinks. Fluid makes milk.

Hang in there, you've got this

Thank you 

Is there any foods you really recommend i give her ? 

Atm shes on puppy food , i make her a egg somtimes other times i make her some chicken

Im going to start feeding her the milk im giving the puppies and some cheese and yoghurt.  Anything else you recommend? 

Shes a light eater so ill watch her eat from.now on

[jjj8]

16 hours ago, tdierikx said:

@jjj8I know that vets are sometimes expensive, but when you have an emergency, they are the better option than asking questions on an internet forum, OK? If any of us could have given advice that wasn't going to adversely affect any of your little family, we would have... just in this case the situation was such that only a full physical examination of all of them by a vet was required - if only to rule out possible major issues with mum dog or the weaker pup.

 

I'm sorry that your first foray into breeding has gone so pear shaped, but that is always a possibility with any breeding...

 

I wouldn't focus too much on weighing the littler pup straight after feeding, contrary to popular belief, the weight gain will never be the same as what has been ingested. I would be more likely to weight them maybe every second day to see if he's gaining weight at a reasonable or acceptable rate instead. If he's gaining and hitting other milestones alongside his stronger brother, then that may just be how he is going to develop... no 2 pups will gain weight or hit milestones exactly the same way, but as long as he's headed in a positive direction there, he should do fine in the end.

 

Definitely keep the pups with mum dog between bottle feeds, and I'd refrain from tube feeding if you can get the required amount into him via bottle or syringe... tubing should only be the last resort, as it will have fatal consequences if you get it wrong.

 

Hopefully the oxytocin shot will help stimulate mum dog to start producing milk again, and keeping pups with her may also help that stimulation, not to mention that she will keep them warm and clean. She may stop cleaning them while they are being formula fed, so please keep an eye on that, and try to stimulate both pups to wee and poo after you have fed them - a warm damp cloth gently wiped on their genitals and anus will simulate mum's tongue and should result in some wee or poo, OK?

 

My preference for puppy milk formula is DiVetelact... it works for dogs, cats, goats/sheep, etc... but if your vet says the formula you have is right for pups, then all good. If pup is reluctant to take to it, maybe a very small amount of honey or molasses in it may sweeten it enough to make him more interested. That trick has worked for me with pups, kittens, fox kits, dingo pups, goats, sheep, and calves... so it's worth a try.

 

Has the vet suggested any calcium increases in mum dog's diet to also help with her milk production? Maybe giving her some of the formula milk once or twice a day may help there - alongside her regular food, she may see it as a nice treat, and it will certainly not do her any harm. Feeding her a puppy formula food will also help with added calcium needs while lactating.

 

Fingers crossed little man finally works out that bottles are good for him, and he starts to co-operate by drinking his bottles for you soon. Small mercies that he's a tiny breed and you only have to get relatively small amounts into him... try having a reluctant 20kg calf that needs to get 2 litres in at each feed... that's NOT fun at all... errr!

 

T.

Hey is there any other foods you recommend i give her other then the puppys milk ? 

Atm shes on puppy food. Im going to start giving her the puppys milk daily with fenugreek in it. Some cheese and yoghurt.  A egg here and there

I got to make her eat as much as possible right ? 

 

As for the feeding puppys inbetween syringe feeding them do i have to tilt them down and pat thier back to burp them ? Ive been doing that 

 

And yes i have been making them pee and poo after feedings they dont always poo tho

[Boronia]

10 hours ago, jjj8 said:

I got this one from chemist warehouse

all it says is adult takes 1 tab 3 times a day .. 

Maybe ill.give her hlf a tab a day ? 

give her the powder from 1/2 tab twice a day, mix it with her food and give her Greek yoghurt (the no added sugar one)

Try to buy the fenugreek seeds as they are better

and, of course, heaps of fresh clean water<---this is just so important.  She mustn't get dehydrated.

There are some suggestions on this page

https://dogcare.dailypuppy.com/foods-promote-milk-production-nursing-dogs-5428.html

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Boronia

[tdierikx]

Go easy on cheese for mum, or any product made from cow's milk. If giving yoghurt, the greek stuff made from goat milk is the best bet, OK?

 

I would stick to feeding the pups the recommended amounts of formula milk for the time being. As long as they are both continuing to gain weight overall, I wouldn't want to overfeed them. Adjust amounts upwards if the weight gains start to get less... obviously the bigger they get, the more they will need, but go with the recommended amounts as much as it is practical.

 

Pups don't necessarily poop every time they feed, so as long as they are doing it at regular intervals and it's not overly runny (it will be a little loose while they are on formula). Is mum dog cleaning them at all? If she is, then that is great too.

 

If you put honey in the formula, it only needs a tiny bit... just enough to sweeten it a tiny bit... so if you are making up a daily batch of say 100ml, then I'd be using about a quarter teaspoon or less... you just need to add the tiniest amount of sweetness. I tend to taste things that I give to any animals that I'm raising, and some formulas are a bit bland or some can be a little on the tart side, so the little bit of honey or molasses (I prefer molasses) just takes the edge off that bland/tart taste and makes it a bit more appealing to the more resistant little ones. Although, if both pups are taking their recommended amounts of the formula without the honey, then I'd maybe hold back on the honey until I may need to entice them further, OK?

 

Does mum dog like raw chicken necks or wing tips? At her tiny size, I'd maybe offer her one smallish raw chicken neck and see how she goes with it, and if she likes it, maybe give her one in the morning and one in the evening - as long as she's going to eat it all. If the necks are to hard for her to eat, you can get wing tips from a butcher that may be easier for her to chew up. Raw chicken bones are not brittle, and are a reasonable source of extra calcium, fat, and protein. If she likes and eats the wing tips, maybe 1-2 in the morning and 1-2 in the afternoon/evening - as long as she will eat them all up. You don't want leftover raw chicken lying about... ewww! Continue feeding her the puppy food also as long as she's trying to feed the pups.

 

341 grams for a toy poodle pup that is about 10-12 days old isn't too bad... you are doing an awesome job!!!

 

As for the tube feeding... if you had done it wrong that one time you tried it, he'd definitely have been showing adverse symptoms within hours, OK? I'd still leave that option as a very LAST resort given that it can go so wrong so fast if any mistake is made. The syringe feeding may be tedious work, but it is definitely working really well for him as he's gaining weight steadily - even if it's not the same rate as his brother. You are doing such an awesome job... keep it up for a while longer and the pups should continue to thrive...

 

T.

[Dogsfevr]

Dont go crazy with foods & additivies  on the bitch ,you need to take a step back with everything & think logical .
What she eats can go into her milk & through her & affect the pups so adding everything on top of the meds shes getting needs to have a common sense approach .

We have solely bottle feed numerous pups due to lack of milk,mother refusing,top ups .

The time frame its taking you to feed the 2 pups is way too long .
Does this syringe have a teat on the end or are you just dripping the milk in ??
We can feed 6/8 in that time .

Pooping after meals is not a regular thing we just wee them .
Being on formula should not mean the runs unless it doesnt agree with them .
Our pups had terrible runs on wombaroo & no one really uses it anymore & divetalact was tno better  .

Hence why we use goats milk the closest to mums milk .
The old hands still use carnation milk .

I would still be trying the bottle or looking at whelping supplies webpage for premmie/small dog teats 

[Boronia]

whelping supplies webpage---> https://whelpingsupplies.com.au/

[jjj8]

2 hours ago, Dogsfevr said:

Dont go crazy with foods & additivies  on the bitch ,you need to take a step back with everything & think logical .
What she eats can go into her milk & through her & affect the pups so adding everything on top of the meds shes getting needs to have a common sense approach .

We have solely bottle feed numerous pups due to lack of milk,mother refusing,top ups .

The time frame its taking you to feed the 2 pups is way too long .
Does this syringe have a teat on the end or are you just dripping the milk in ??
We can feed 6/8 in that time .

Pooping after meals is not a regular thing we just wee them .
Being on formula should not mean the runs unless it doesnt agree with them .
Our pups had terrible runs on wombaroo & no one really uses it anymore & divetalact was tno better  .

Hence why we use goats milk the closest to mums milk .
The old hands still use carnation milk .

I would still be trying the bottle or looking at whelping supplies webpage for premmie/small dog teats 

Omg really , yeah im just dripping the milk in and letting them sallow then going dripping again is that why its taking so long ? If i put a teat at the end of the syringe and they suck would that be way faster ? 

Last time i tried they wouldn't suck on the teat but ill give it another go .

 

Okay i still got quite about of wombaroo left but i wont buy it again. So you think goats milk is best ? 

 

At 3 weeks old what sort of puppy food should i start giving them ? 

 

Do you burp your puppies inbetween bottle feeding them ? 

[jjj8]

10 hours ago, tdierikx said:

Go easy on cheese for mum, or any product made from cow's milk. If giving yoghurt, the greek stuff made from goat milk is the best bet, OK?

 

I would stick to feeding the pups the recommended amounts of formula milk for the time being. As long as they are both continuing to gain weight overall, I wouldn't want to overfeed them. Adjust amounts upwards if the weight gains start to get less... obviously the bigger they get, the more they will need, but go with the recommended amounts as much as it is practical.

 

Pups don't necessarily poop every time they feed, so as long as they are doing it at regular intervals and it's not overly runny (it will be a little loose while they are on formula). Is mum dog cleaning them at all? If she is, then that is great too.

 

If you put honey in the formula, it only needs a tiny bit... just enough to sweeten it a tiny bit... so if you are making up a daily batch of say 100ml, then I'd be using about a quarter teaspoon or less... you just need to add the tiniest amount of sweetness. I tend to taste things that I give to any animals that I'm raising, and some formulas are a bit bland or some can be a little on the tart side, so the little bit of honey or molasses (I prefer molasses) just takes the edge off that bland/tart taste and makes it a bit more appealing to the more resistant little ones. Although, if both pups are taking their recommended amounts of the formula without the honey, then I'd maybe hold back on the honey until I may need to entice them further, OK?

 

Does mum dog like raw chicken necks or wing tips? At her tiny size, I'd maybe offer her one smallish raw chicken neck and see how she goes with it, and if she likes it, maybe give her one in the morning and one in the evening - as long as she's going to eat it all. If the necks are to hard for her to eat, you can get wing tips from a butcher that may be easier for her to chew up. Raw chicken bones are not brittle, and are a reasonable source of extra calcium, fat, and protein. If she likes and eats the wing tips, maybe 1-2 in the morning and 1-2 in the afternoon/evening - as long as she will eat them all up. You don't want leftover raw chicken lying about... ewww! Continue feeding her the puppy food also as long as she's trying to feed the pups.

 

341 grams for a toy poodle pup that is about 10-12 days old isn't too bad... you are doing an awesome job!!!

 

As for the tube feeding... if you had done it wrong that one time you tried it, he'd definitely have been showing adverse symptoms within hours, OK? I'd still leave that option as a very LAST resort given that it can go so wrong so fast if any mistake is made. The syringe feeding may be tedious work, but it is definitely working really well for him as he's gaining weight steadily - even if it's not the same rate as his brother. You are doing such an awesome job... keep it up for a while longer and the pups should continue to thrive...

 

T.

Hey okay that makes sense

Little guy is now at 363grams and brother is at 420 hahha. Happy they both gaining weight tho.

 

Ive never fed her chicken wings or necks but ill get some and try 

 

Yes mum licks them and cleans them she stays with them most of the day only comes out to use toliet and for little breaks.

 

Yeah im not going tube feeding again unless its a last resort.  He seems absolutely fine so i guess i done it right .

 

What puppy food do you recommend i start giving the pups at 3 weeks old ? 

 

As for syringe feeding as someone else commented it does take me a long time so il try attaching a teat on it this time and see if they suckle on it

[jjj8]

Okay will do thanks !!

[tdierikx]

11 hours ago, jjj8 said:

What puppy food do you recommend i start giving the pups at 3 weeks old ?

 

I used to get tinned puppy food and mix it into a slurry with warm formula that they'd been having up until then... that meant there was some familiar taste in it to get them on board with the idea. Nice and sloppy at first, and gradually ease off on how much liquid you add as they start working out how to chomp into it rather than lapping it up.

 

It will be a very messy affair for the first few bowl/plate feedings, so be prepared to be wiping it off their faces and feet... *grin*

 

T.

[Mairead]

Yes puppy food with puppy formula, like sloppy porridge. I used soaked puppy dry food plus formula rather than tinned.

And mum may stop cleaning up after them if she hasn't already, so even more work for you. 

If done properly, being a breeder is neither easy nor profitable.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Mairead

[Rebanne]

Most breeders I know, me included start off with a "pink slushie" which is puppy milk and raw mince. If you go the tin food route don't just buy the pal puppy food. There is a better food for them, the name eludes me at the moment. If you go to one of the bigger pet shops they should have it in stock. It's a mousse type food.

[Rebanne]

found it. Expensive but if you do a google search you might find it cheaper plus you only have wee tiny dogs. I couldn't afford to feed it to my boofers 

 

https://www.ozfurkids.com.au/products/royal-canin-starter-mousse