South Africa Pit Bull Attacks" We Can't Live in a World Where Dogs Eat Children"

[Deeds]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-63727936

 

Tragic story but interesting to read how other countries handle dog attacks.

[coneye]

Mmmm  diferent countrys different ways of dealing with things ,, In Aust the  way to deal with dogs that attack children seems to be ,, Go see a dog behavourist  it might not be the dogs fault its got toothache ... mind you that depends who you talk too my way would just be GET RID

[~Anne~]

Poor little boy and also the dogs for their horrific treatment afterwards.  

 

In Australia, there are already restrictions in place for pit bulls. I’m not a fan of the breed but I also don’t believe dogs of proven good temperament should be seized and or euthanised unnecessarily. 
 

I remember the battles on this forum when the restrictions came into place. The law makers got it wrong and it’s still wrong but they are definitely not a breed for people who don’t understand them or who try to tell the world they’re teddy bears with a bad rap. 

[sandgrubber]

8 hours ago, Deeds said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-63727936

 

Tragic story but interesting to read how other countries handle dog attacks.

Voluntary surrender could only happen where there's a tight knit community.  But the same sort of pressure leads to witch killings.  Not sure it's better than the often dubious dog control done through governments.

[tdierikx]

With the rates of violent crime in South Africa, as noted at the end of the story, many people have certain breeds of dog for protection... and also as noted at the end of the story, removing one breed of dog will only see an increase in other breeds owned for the same reason.

 

So the problem is not necessarily going to be resolved by banning a particular breed of dog... they will simply be replaced by other breeds primarily bred/owned for protection as noted in the article. Until the crime rate problem is addressed effectively, they won't see the dog attack rate dropping significantly, it will just be perpetrated by other breeds instead. Do we simply ban any breed of dog that may inflict damage on a child simply because of its size/breed and possible potential given the "right" circumstance?

 

@coneye, would you have given up your Rottweiler to be destroyed because someone else's Rottweiler attacked a child, and there was a call to ban all Rottweilers?

 

T.

[Selkie]

1 hour ago, tdierikx said:

With the rates of violent crime in South Africa, as noted at the end of the story, many people have certain breeds of dog for protection... and also as noted at the end of the story, removing one breed of dog will only see an increase in other breeds owned for the same reason.

 

So the problem is not necessarily going to be resolved by banning a particular breed of dog... they will simply be replaced by other breeds primarily bred/owned for protection as noted in the article. Until the crime rate problem is addressed effectively, they won't see the dog attack rate dropping significantly, it will just be perpetrated by other breeds instead. Do we simply ban any breed of dog that may inflict damage on a child simply because of its size/breed and possible potential given the "right" circumstance?

 

@coneye, would you have given up your Rottweiler to be destroyed because someone else's Rottweiler attacked a child, and there was a call to ban all Rottweilers?

 

T.

 

You have summed this up very nicely!

[asal]

4 hours ago, tdierikx said:

With the rates of violent crime in South Africa, as noted at the end of the story, many people have certain breeds of dog for protection... and also as noted at the end of the story, removing one breed of dog will only see an increase in other breeds owned for the same reason.

 

So the problem is not necessarily going to be resolved by banning a particular breed of dog... they will simply be replaced by other breeds primarily bred/owned for protection as noted in the article. Until the crime rate problem is addressed effectively, they won't see the dog attack rate dropping significantly, it will just be perpetrated by other breeds instead. Do we simply ban any breed of dog that may inflict damage on a child simply because of its size/breed and possible potential given the "right" circumstance?

 

@coneye, would you have given up your Rottweiler to be destroyed because someone else's Rottweiler attacked a child, and there was a call to ban all Rottweilers?

 

T.

 

 

the thing is, its not politically correct to say how different breeds "protect" at least in the "bad old days" the bogan's had their savage German shepherds, cattle dogs, rotties  and Dobermans here in Australia.

 

the import of the breeds that were not bred to "protect" but to kill meant the introduction of breeds that instead tear to target to pieces,. entire muscle mass torn off arm's, leg's, face, throat. In the case of the jogger at Liverpool the ambos could see his lungs through his ribs as his chest muscles were torn off in a tug of war between the two working on him... the only reason they didn't get to finish him off a car driver decided to drive his car over the man so the two dogs could not longer tear him apart as easily as they were.  only then did they apparently head back home.

 

but its not politically correct to name which breeds are bred for this. only the deed is allowed to be spoken of

 

frankly there were reams of utube videos of dog catchers being taken apart to their screams for help years before our half witted quarantine department allowed them here.  Yes a good percentage live their lives as "nanny dogs".  but hit the trigger button and an incredibly efficient killing machine is activated.

If I could copy and paste the first adds when they arrived they were not being promoted as nanny dogs, Prices were $10,000 and up at a time when prices for  any other breeds were

$500 and less

 

in a childhood filled with dogs loose on the streets none of what we have been seeing since these breeds were allowed here to fill the bogan need  happened.

 

Mind you, how many know the Neopolitan Mastif was a mafia favourite for discipling anyone who displeased a Don?

Never mess with one of them in guard mode.  We had a caretaker who bought a pup, gee by the time he was 9 months old, no one could go back to their car in the pony club car park if they had forgotten something. either forget it or find the caretaker to escort you or have them lock him up for the day. Otherwise no one could go home if the caretaker went out.   She decided getting him desexed might help.  We all heaved a sigh of relief when he didnt wake up after the op, He had become frightening.

 

on the good side the bred to be savage German shepherds, rottie's, cattle dogs and Dobermans have just about  disappeared. At least if one decided to defend their territory or human, they didn't tear the target to pieces as happens now. 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by asal

[tdierikx]

So @asal, would you be willing to have your ACDs destroyed because one of their breed was identified as being a part of an attack that caused the death of a toddler in Cowra recently? https://www.9news.com.au/national/cowra-dog-attack-victim-toddler-identified/0a0b8161-f0ef-4124-9c9f-be403cf6da80

 

I will concede that some breeds of dog definitely have the capacity to do immense damage to humans and other animals, but as with human-on-human violence, isn't it more likely to be an individual animal issue, rather than all animals of a particular breed being prone to that level of violence?

 

T.

[coneye]

6 hours ago, tdierikx said:

With the rates of violent crime in South Africa, as noted at the end of the story, many people have certain breeds of dog for protection... and also as noted at the end of the story, removing one breed of dog will only see an increase in other breeds owned for the same reason.

 

So the problem is not necessarily going to be resolved by banning a particular breed of dog... they will simply be replaced by other breeds primarily bred/owned for protection as noted in the article. Until the crime rate problem is addressed effectively, they won't see the dog attack rate dropping significantly, it will just be perpetrated by other breeds instead. Do we simply ban any breed of dog that may inflict damage on a child simply because of its size/breed and possible potential given the "right" circumstance?

 

@coneye, would you have given up your Rottweiler to be destroyed because someone else's Rottweiler attacked a child, and there was a call to ban all Rottweilers?

 

T.

To answer your question  I would'nt want to if i had a gentle one  BUT if the law banned rottys has a dangerous breed i would'nt own one  simple ,,

[coneye]

Problem is   a lot of these dogs  are nice dogs , but the facts are   they are bred for a reason and its instinctive , , Idiot owners   buy them and cannot train or control them .   Facts are some dogs are just not suitable for familly pets ,    on u tube theres a Canadian fella who breeds , sells , and trains working dogs for security and protection work ,, he makes good videos , it was interesting to see him talk  about dutch shepards , he said they should not be used for pets , Course he had a backlog of people  with the mine was the best dog ever , but he was generalising , like he said they are a very very reactive dog , and the dog that  has a far higher percentage of turning and biting there owners ,  get a shepard he says ,    very interesting to listen to him , mind you  he was refering to the ones that come from working lines .

 

But also good points made about africa and the crime ,, because to be honest , I've been to south africa , and i'll tell you this much if i lived there , in certain parts never mind a pit bull  i'd have a lion in the house ,  , in fact i'd have two  just to be sure they done there job ,

 

 

[asal]

5 hours ago, tdierikx said:

So @asal, would you be willing to have your ACDs destroyed because one of their breed was identified as being a part of an attack that caused the death of a toddler in Cowra recently? https://www.9news.com.au/national/cowra-dog-attack-victim-toddler-identified/0a0b8161-f0ef-4124-9c9f-be403cf6da80

 

I will concede that some breeds of dog definitely have the capacity to do immense damage to humans and other animals, but as with human-on-human violence, isn't it more likely to be an individual animal issue, rather than all animals of a particular breed being prone to that level of violence?

 

T.

 

 

its a disaster either way now.

 

any breed can be selected for fighting as was done in the past, There is a core of the population that see their dogs as an extension of themselves, the my dog is better than your dog mentality. 

 

When a child ends up in the vicinity of this kind the outcome hits the headlines.

 

no one alive can come up with a solution now that is going to tick the politically correct boxes.

 

one prevention would be NEVER leave your child unattended or able to be accessed by anyone's dog. As for the adults taken down they are how the the military call it? collateral damage. if your numbers up, tough luck.

 

as for people walking or jogging in the streets?  Case of do so at your own risk, no amount of compensation will give the one that ends up a target their life back as they knew it.

 

I was recently lined up by a friends stumpy tailed cattle dog and I had no illusions he was going to sink his teeth in my leg first opportunity presented., he saw me heading for my car, slid though a gap in the gate I thought he couldn't fit and headed for me. the stance, the body language left me in no doubt he was abut to attack.

 

at least with a cattledog of either of the three types, ACD, ASTCD, and the non ankc recognised Wire hair stumpy, which this one was. at least I knew it was my leg that was the target and just as much that long as I faced the mongrel I had a better than 50% chance of backing to my car and hopefully slide in backwards and slam the door before he could connect if I was lucky.

 

Made it, and his owner came out as he charged the closing door and apologised he forgot to see me out. Admitted he had nailed another friend the previous day.

 

I would rather face him than the Neo belonging to the caretaker. or any of the others that were never herding breeds though.

 

Interesting ""So we'll maybe see a drop in pit bull maulings, but we'll see an increase in say Rottweiler or German Shepherd maulings," she said."

 

I for one would way prefer to be facing a Rottie or German shepherd than they who should not be named if you want to be safely politically correct.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by asal

[Tempus Fugit]

Don't forget BSL doesn't necessarily involve a complete ban on owning a breed. In Ireland for example BSL means you can't take your gsd or rottie among certain other breeds in public unless muzzled. Other countries like Denmark & Iceland have similar BSL restrictions. Interesting though to compare with the campaign by greyhound rescue groups in Aus getting muzzle restrictions on retired greys removed.

However muzzle-in-public laws are no use in preventing attacks by unmuzzled dogs that escape from their owner's premises as in the case of the cattle dog mentioned by ASAL. Theoretically such dogs need to be classified as a "Dangerous Dog" requiring special containment.

Also, as other posts have stated, there are dozens of breeds that are candidates for BSL if you are going to have BSL as a control measure. Apart from pitbulls, I have never been able to fathom why Australia's BSL only involves four breeds.

[asal]

19 hours ago, coneye said:

Problem is   a lot of these dogs  are nice dogs , but the facts are   they are bred for a reason and its instinctive , , Idiot owners   buy them and cannot train or control them .   Facts are some dogs are just not suitable for familly pets ,    on u tube theres a Canadian fella who breeds , sells , and trains working dogs for security and protection work ,, he makes good videos , it was interesting to see him talk  about dutch shepards , he said they should not be used for pets , Course he had a backlog of people  with the mine was the best dog ever , but he was generalising , like he said they are a very very reactive dog , and the dog that  has a far higher percentage of turning and biting there owners ,  get a shepard he says ,    very interesting to listen to him , mind you  he was refering to the ones that come from working lines .

 

But also good points made about africa and the crime ,, because to be honest , I've been to south africa , and i'll tell you this much if i lived there , in certain parts never mind a pit bull  i'd have a lion in the house ,  , in fact i'd have two  just to be sure they done there job ,

 

 

 

 

 And that's the Irony.

 

its Illegal to own a lion in the majority of countries because even though many are as lovely as Elsa when raised right.    When one decides to attack the results are usually fatal or massive  life changing disfigurement and damage,  if the target survives.  

 

yet who is using the "blame the deed, not the breed" regarding keeping Lions   ????????????  (ok crossed the politically correct line I know)

 

Frankly, knowing the damage already long documented in the country of origin some breeds should never have been allowed to be imported, but that's after the fact so is not going to solve the problem now.

 

I know my blood runs cold when a pit bull comes running at me and I think with good reason.  One neighbour has one and they have NEVER taught it to answer to anyone but the son who brought it home.  as a six month pup it tried to kill a newborn foal but the mum drove it off before it had inflicted more than minor damage. I do admit I was sad the mum had not dispatched it.

fast forward 12 month's . Visiting my friend, his mum and it got out of the garage and came for me. Nothing she called of said to it deflected its run.  I knew it was save my self or tough luck.  unlike a cattle dog, german shepherd or rotti.  even the Neo, facing it had no affect on the speed of the charge. fortunately I was near enough to my car to open the door and jump in pulling the door behind me. as the window was open it then tried to climb in and got the glass up in time. and from then on, if I visited her I rang first and she ensured she was locked up and could not get out.

 

When they went out she was always locked up in case someone came and did not know to not get out of their car. so she sure was not "guarding" anything but the inside of the garage.

 

for the family she was the darling nanny dog.

 

 

lucky for the neighbour hood she stayed home and didnt roam or I have no doubt she would have ended up an "In the News'" candidate.  Actually I suspect one of the reasons she stayed home was the mum of the foal was patrolling the fences watching her every move if she tried to leave home. they were not dog proof fences, just plain and barb wire that kept cattle and horses out of her humans property.   she wasnt bright enough to realise she could exit up the battleaxe driveway .   

Edited November 29, 2022 by asal

[asal]

9 hours ago, Tempus Fugit said:

 Interesting though to compare with the campaign by greyhound rescue groups in Aus getting muzzle restrictions on retired greys removed.

However muzzle-in-public laws are no use in preventing attacks by unmuzzled dogs that escape from their owner's premises as in the case of the cattle dog mentioned by ASAL. Theoretically such dogs need to be classified as a "Dangerous Dog" requiring special containment.

Also, as other posts have stated, there are dozens of breeds that are candidates for BSL if you are going to have BSL as a control measure. Apart from pitbulls, I have never been able to fathom why Australia's BSL only involves four breeds.

 

 

yes its a catch 22 re ex racing greyhounds. at a race involving my daughter in law's brothers dog, Honey.  There were 9 in the field, the hare stopped.

Honey and six others kept going without a falter, they knew their reward was for the first one into the catching pen would be first to receive their fluffy toy to play with.

 

only two dogs stopped at the hare, their owners tried to have it declared a no race .  

 

The race results stood.

 

the two who stopped I would suspect might need muzzles if out on the street perhaps?

 

 

  ( P.S. Salem the cat is the boss of the home.   Although once Honey is on the lounge not much room for anyone else.)

Edited November 29, 2022 by asal

[coneye]

These topics will go on and on , we will never find a solution , I think the answer is to try and educate people , against owning a viscous dog ,, But thats a real hard one ,,  I owned the biggest shepard i've ever seen in my life , but he was also the gentlest  one i've ever seen ,,  he actually  watched an intruder come over my carport roof , and  tried to play  with us both whilst i grappled with the guy  , so much for  the guard dog i wanted ,, , i've owned two rottys ,, the female was perhaps one step above the shepard , she would at least bark at a stranger  but then only at night , i know for a fact she would'nt protect my property , because i came home one day and found my mate in the back garden waiting for us , he had his grandaughter with him and she was playing with the dog ,,  so much for viscous rottys ,, Oh and he himself did'nt know the dog ..

 

But on the other hand i did have a big male rotty , he was freindly   the postman used to stop and ask wheres naz he always if he had time ,  liked to have a quick play with him he was a rotty lover ,,, BUT i also know for a fact  at night he would definetly go you if you came in my yard ,,  i know that because i seen him do it  he attacked a fence hopper   who hopped into my garden early hrs of the morning , and no just a bite an attack , he hopped back over the fence and done a bolt but left a lot of blood behind ,,, Now  heres the thing , i was proud of my gentle ones for being gentle , but i was also glad the mean one  would protect  , thats what i got him for ,,, but one thing all these dogs had iin common was i would never EVER leave them near children  on there own ,, its just something thats ingrained in me , never EVER trust a dog completly .. If i ever had  a yard ful  of kids which i did when my boys were younger the dogs were in the dog run , I even stopped putting them in the run whislt out after my freind came in and let her out to play with his grandaughter ,  

if  we ever went out    the dogs were in the house , NEVER ever left   on there own with people they did'nt know , its the people we have to educate ,,, without getting in another argument , the other post Deleted ,  got a bit strong  and heated ,and i don't want to rehash it all ,  but   my points were always , on the basis if a dog is showing these tendencies and the owner cannot control it , you have a moral and perhaps legal resposibility to get rid of it , and by get rid i mean probably put it down .

 

But even then  you will still  get it happenning  especielly in other parts of the world ,, i've travelled a lot and can see why in some places in say America , and definetly Africa people woild feel the need  for such animals ,  but the risk will always be there ,   and you will never tell these people not to own said animals ,, i mean jeez ,, some parts of Africa , its not uncommon for the locals to get a vigilante gang up and burn people alive because they were deemed has robbers or bad man . .

 

But here in Aust we don't have a need for dogs that are bred to kill  so its time to educate owners , and unfortunatly  most will not think they need educting , so the only way is to bring in huge fines ,  take away and destroy  .  and just make people relize  some dog breeds are just not meant for pets .

 

I really like the Dutch shepards and was looking for one ,, thats where i came across while doing research , the video of the canadian trainer saying he was against them for pets  ,,  i agreed and changed my mind i no longer want one ,, he actually made a video where he said , most people just say ,, its the way  dogs are brought up ,, he argued that was rubbish it was usually in the dogs genetic makeup , if thats what they have been bred for it will come out  just needs the stimulation to bring it out .. , Thes topics are a shame because  its usually poor people who just bought a pet and are genuinly shocked besides deeply upset that there dog could do such a thing , thats why  good breeding and breeders are essential ,  , its all such a complex issue is'nt it

Edited November 29, 2022 by coneye

[Tempus Fugit]

On 29/11/2022 at 3:47 PM, coneye said:

But here in Aust we don't have a need for dogs that are bred to kill 

I think you will find dogs used for pig hunting in Australia can be a mite agressive.

Overseas there are quite a lot of breeds used for hunting large animals or livestock guarding that could potentially be imported to Australia. The latter need to have the gameness to fight predatory wolves, lynxes etc.

[coneye]

20 hours ago, Tempus Fugit said:

I think you will find dogs used for pig hunting in Australia can be a mite agressive.

Overseas there are quite a lot of breeds used for hunting large animals or livestock guarding that could potentially be imported to Australia. The latter need to have the gameness to fight predatory wolves, lynxes etc.

Certainly would not disagree with you there , however  theres not a need for them just a want for them ,