Pedigree Dogs Exposed 14 years on.

[Kirislin]

I remember the furious uproar this documentary created with breed clubs, and kennel clubs all around the world, and right here on DOL!  Jemima Harrison was criticised and ridiculed back then. 
I’m curious to know how people feel about it now. 

[asal]

I feel it brought to light the sad fact show people morph their chosen breed in the chase to win at the expense of the breeds health and well being, labeling the changes as "improving" the breed. 

 

Those who tried to point out this not not fair on the animals were ignored. At best.

 

Labled as puppy farmers and persecuted to resign their membership at worst. The message being, walk to the same beat or get out before your pushed.

 

Sadly that doco was the only thing to bring it to the attention of the world in the worst possible way, but many pet owners were already very unhappy with the changes happening, it is so strange that the show breeders seem unable to understand morphing, is not "improving"  .

 

as for the breeder who told me she "would never keep second best just because it had no hernias, when they are not a disqualification and anyway, I doubt you will find a hernia free cavalier within 10 years!" Because of her attitude all her dogs had hernia's?  Ok she had many generations of champions, But how on earth is that maintaining the breed?

 

so many breeds today are riddled with hernia's because so many have the same attitude.  That's just one that the show scene ignores to the detriment to the quality of life of the individuals they breed. Meanwhile oblivious to the pet owning public being appalled at how hard it is to find a puppy without the problem.

 

so many things in pups bred for the show scene the pet people dont want to see in their pup.   The show world was already alienating people long before Pedigree dogs exposed went to air.

 

The list is long, is enough time left to rectify?   

 

at lest its not just dogs the show scene has morphed

 

President Roosevelt, Persian cat (tabby), 1945

 

Although my uncles were white, not tabby, their faces side on were the same as the cat above. in the face's on photo below, they seem shorter? Ear size was the same as the cat above as well.   I suspect the white and red are kittens, hence the different appearance due to their age.

 

 

my uncle bred Persian cats like these in 1950  

 

this painting dates 1891

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_cat#/media/File:Carl_Kahler_-_My_Wife's_Lovers.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

the modern Persian cat has no muzzle

 

 the 2007 standard interpretation.

resulting in....

"

. Severely bulging eyes (exophthalmos) is a consequence of shallow orbits 5 and increases the predisposition for corneal ulcerations 8,9 . It was also shown that with the greater reduction of the facial bones, deformation of the neurocranium also increases 10 . With increased reduction of the snout, the neurocranium also gets shorter but wider which results in a significantly reduced cranial capacity in peke-face Persians leading to cerebellar herniation, intraforaminal crowding and associated obstructive internal hydrocephalus 10 . ...

... It was also shown that with the greater reduction of the facial bones, deformation of the neurocranium also increases 10 . With increased reduction of the snout, the neurocranium also gets shorter but wider which results in a significantly reduced cranial capacity in peke-face Persians leading to cerebellar herniation, intraforaminal crowding and associated obstructive internal hydrocephalus 10 . The question arises, as to whether the profound phenotypic modification of the skull is part of a physiologic spectrum of skull phenotypes in the Persian breed or rather reflects pathologic skull development. ..."

 

probably same problems to be found in the dog breeds who have lost their muzzles too.

 

Horse breeds are being morphed too resulting in soundness issues in many forms.

this was the beginning of the halter qh 

 

https://hoovesblog.com/2014/02/11/the-bad-and-the-ugly-halter-horses-2/comment-page-1/

 

this is the accumulated result. it sold for I believe $100,000  ?

 

 

 

thats just one equine breed example.

 

selecting for hyper mobile joints in the warmblood has led to another type of disaster.

 

Wonder when the 'PEDIGREE species exposed "  will be going to air?

 

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by asal

[moosmum]

"Pet owners were already very unhappy with the changes happening"

 

Yes. The Doco. only brought into the open that Dogs were  being bred for success in the show ring and increasing extremes of their standards, before other traits that ensured their success else where.

For the Environment of the Show ring rather than the environments beyond that existence.

 

There have been so many changes since then, some better, some a lot worse.

 

There has been a genuine attempt to fix the problems by a majority and health testing has become an expectation quickly from it. 

The causes of why its happening has never been properly explored or accepted though. Until it is, we are only working around the problem. Its effects are not limited to the pedigree system.

 

I had not seen  PDE before I joined DOL.  I joined to try to figure out the root cause of the problems I was experiencing myself with my chosen breed, and the absolute crap thrown my way by Registered breeders for putting my own standards before ANKCs.

 

I had always understood that the Pedigree system was un sustainable with out recognition of cross breeds. I thought as as long that system was supplying the dogs I wanted and had come to expect, none of my business. Then they couldn't. I researched. Extensively. Beyond Australia. And The advise from professionals who had historically used these dogs for their intended purpose was to pick another breed. After 7 long years, I fluked 1 back yard bred  I came close to refusing, because she was BYB. Then 3 years later another for my son, a cross breed. Both better performing (in our situation/environment) than any I had had previously.

 

I bred, ignorantly  thinking their qualities were worth keeping and an 'improvement' breed loyalists would appreciate, though we bred for ourselves to save such long waits for what we needed now. I used my daughters pedigree male. He was not what I wanted, but the closest we had found in a Pedigree and was  working lines. My pure bred refused to breed naturally by the time she was 3 yo., so pups were cross.

 

Advertising brought out the nastiest trolling from Pedigree breeders. I was totally unprepared for that, to such an extent. Discrediting myself and my dogs by people who had absolutely no idea who or what I was, or what my dogs were like, what they had to offer, or the lengths I went to ensure both a good start and a good future. And that harms DOGS. regardless of their pedigree or lack of one. So I came here to see If I could find where that problem originated.

Another commentator banned way back then was on the same mission. She said in one of her posts " If there is a problem with the culture, look to the constitution" Made sense and backed by science, so thats what I did. I have done it extensively, researching constitutional theory etc. and and searching for evidence to support the relevant theory. There is an abundance. Hasn't got me anywhere yet, and thats scary as, since the model prediction is for the end of Domestic dogs and the momentum of the process increases exponentially as expectations are altered to support that end. Any window we might have left to fix this almost gone, and maybe already too late.

 

I had incredible feed back from buyers, ( and trainers in protection) with requests to repeat. I also have a standing offer (I won't be accepting) from one to pay for any dog I can find to resurrect this line. Gone, because dogs of known and tested lines are unavailable to improve Dogs. Only Pedigrees.

 

 

[Pjrt]

10 minutes ago, moosmum said:

"Pet owners were already very unhappy with the changes happening"

 

Yes. The Doco. only brought into the open that Dogs were  being bred for success in the show ring and increasing extremes of their standards, before other traits that ensured their success else where.

For the Environment of the Show ring rather than the environments beyond that existence.

 

There have been so many changes since then, some better, some a lot worse.

 

There has been a genuine attempt to fix the problems by a majority and health testing has become an expectation quickly from it. 

The causes of why its happening has never been properly explored or accepted though. Until it is, we are only working around the problem. Its effects are not limited to the pedigree system.

 

I had not seen  PDE before I joined DOL.  I joined to try to figure out the root cause of the problems I was experiencing myself with my chosen breed, and the absolute crap thrown my way by Registered breeders for putting my own standards before ANKCs.

 

I had always understood that the Pedigree system was un sustainable with out recognition of cross breeds. I thought as as long that system was supplying the dogs I wanted and had come to expect, none of my business. Then they couldn't. I researched. Extensively. Beyond Australia. And The advise from professionals who had historically used these dogs for their intended purpose was to pick another breed. After 7 long years, I fluked 1 back yard bred  I came close to refusing, because she was BYB. Then 3 years later another for my son, a cross breed. Both better performing (in our situation/environment) than any I had had previously.

 

I bred, ignorantly  thinking their qualities were worth keeping and an 'improvement' breed loyalists would appreciate, though we bred for ourselves to save such long waits for what we needed now. I used my daughters pedigree male. He was not what I wanted, but the closest we had found in a Pedigree and was  working lines. My pure bred refused to breed naturally by the time she was 3 yo., so pups were cross.

 

Advertising brought out the nastiest trolling from Pedigree breeders. I was totally unprepared for that, to such an extent. Discrediting myself and my dogs by people who had absolutely no idea who or what I was, or what my dogs were like, what they had to offer, or the lengths I went to ensure both a good start and a good future. And that harms DOGS. regardless of their pedigree or lack of one. So I came here to see If I could find where that problem originated.

Another commentator banned way back then was on the same mission. She said in one of her posts " If there is a problem with the culture, look to the constitution" Made sense and backed by science, so thats what I did. I have done it extensively, researching constitutional theory etc. and and searching for evidence to support the relevant theory. There is an abundance. Hasn't got me anywhere yet, and thats scary as, since the model prediction is for the end of Domestic dogs and the momentum of the process increases exponentially as expectations are altered to support that end. Any window we might have left to fix this almost gone, and maybe already too late.

 

I had incredible feed back from buyers, ( and trainers in protection) with requests to repeat. I also have a standing offer (I won't be accepting) from one to pay for any dog I can find to resurrect this line. Gone, because dogs of known and tested lines are unavailable to improve Dogs. Only Pedigrees.

 

 

Thank you. 
 

 

[Amazetl]

I think the doc was good in that it focused on the very real concerns, however a lot of people at the time and since then have taken it to be as though all show dogs are like that and there was and is an anti pedigree dog argument that goes around on social media due to it. A lot of people after watching it were left with very distressing feelings, rightly so, but attacked all pedigree breeders for it. 

 

Judges are the ones who rule it all, aren’t they? If they don’t select the unhealthy dogs or the clearly unhealthy looking dogs then they don’t win and they don’t continue those lines. 

 

I don’t know a lot about it but I do think a lot is on the judges. 

[Pjrt]

I’ve always thought one of the quickest easiest ways to see more moderate examples is for judges to select away from extremes and trends, to choose those more traditional moderate and balanced examples. I think judges are often breeders themselves and get swept up in it all. Let’s face it, dog showing is a competition. People like to win competitions. Some at any cost. 
 

Judging alone isn’t going to be a solution though. 
 

kennel club purebreed /show breeding as it’s done in the dog world is quite literally inherently flawed. If you keep breeding into a closed gene pool long enough any idiot can see that’s a dead end road paved with problems. You can health test the shit out of these dogs but all that does is further diminish the available closed gene pool. The ONLY way to help improve things is out crossing and mixed breeding. I think that really scares people who are welded onto the ideal of  purebreed 

[sandgrubber]

I echo much of what has been said above.

 

My biggest problem with PDE is that it has been too limited.   I've been on many FB dog groups and complaints about allergies,  ear problems (Springers), anxiety and other relatively minor but very troublesome problems take up a lot of space.  Such problems should be RARE in well bred dogs.

 

I've never seen Jemima say, for example,  "don't breed an itchy bitch (or dog)".   Too much focus on the most visibly obvious extreme defects,  too little on more widespread and less photogenic problems.

 

I'd love to see more attention to how pedigrees can be used for good, eg, by combining them with health and longevity info.

Edited September 23, 2022 by sandgrubber

[Mitta]

https://ankc.org.au/media/pdf/635576245799998781_46874502-4466-4fbc-a773-ce37778047d7.pdf The Tibetan Spaniel breed standard has a general requirement that a Tibbies attributes 'must not be exaggerated in any way'.  As far as I know that's always been the guiding principle.

 

[Kirislin]

On 22/9/2022 at 8:38 AM, asal said:

I feel it brought to light the sad fact show people morph their chosen breed in the chase to win at the expense of the breeds health and well being, labeling the changes as "improving" the breed. 

 

Those who tried to point out this not not fair on the animals were ignored. At best.

 

Labled as puppy farmers and persecuted to resign their membership at worst. The message being, walk to the same beat or get out before your pushed.

 

Sadly that doco was the only thing to bring it to the attention of the world in the worst possible way, but many pet owners were already very unhappy with the changes happening, it is so strange that the show breeders seem unable to understand morphing, is not "improving"  .

 

as for the breeder who told me she "would never keep second best just because it had no hernias, when they are not a disqualification and anyway, I doubt you will find a hernia free cavalier within 10 years!" Because of her attitude all her dogs had hernia's?  Ok she had many generations of champions, But how on earth is that maintaining the breed?

 

so many breeds today are riddled with hernia's because so many have the same attitude.  That's just one that the show scene ignores to the detriment to the quality of life of the individuals they breed. Meanwhile oblivious to the pet owning public being appalled at how hard it is to find a puppy without the problem.

 

so many things in pups bred for the show scene the pet people dont want to see in their pup.   The show world was already alienating people long before Pedigree dogs exposed went to air.

 

The list is long, is enough time left to rectify?   

 

at lest its not just dogs the show scene has morphed

 

President Roosevelt, Persian cat (tabby), 1945

 

Although my uncles were white, not tabby, their faces side on were the same as the cat above. in the face's on photo below, they seem shorter? Ear size was the same as the cat above as well.   I suspect the white and red are kittens, hence the different appearance due to their age.

 

 

my uncle bred Persian cats like these in 1950  

 

this painting dates 1891

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_cat#/media/File:Carl_Kahler_-_My_Wife's_Lovers.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

the modern Persian cat has no muzzle

 

 the 2007 standard interpretation.

resulting in....

"

. Severely bulging eyes (exophthalmos) is a consequence of shallow orbits 5 and increases the predisposition for corneal ulcerations 8,9 . It was also shown that with the greater reduction of the facial bones, deformation of the neurocranium also increases 10 . With increased reduction of the snout, the neurocranium also gets shorter but wider which results in a significantly reduced cranial capacity in peke-face Persians leading to cerebellar herniation, intraforaminal crowding and associated obstructive internal hydrocephalus 10 . ...

... It was also shown that with the greater reduction of the facial bones, deformation of the neurocranium also increases 10 . With increased reduction of the snout, the neurocranium also gets shorter but wider which results in a significantly reduced cranial capacity in peke-face Persians leading to cerebellar herniation, intraforaminal crowding and associated obstructive internal hydrocephalus 10 . The question arises, as to whether the profound phenotypic modification of the skull is part of a physiologic spectrum of skull phenotypes in the Persian breed or rather reflects pathologic skull development. ..."

 

probably same problems to be found in the dog breeds who have lost their muzzles too.

 

Horse breeds are being morphed too resulting in soundness issues in many forms.

this was the beginning of the halter qh 

 

https://hoovesblog.com/2014/02/11/the-bad-and-the-ugly-halter-horses-2/comment-page-1/

 

this is the accumulated result. it sold for I believe $100,000  ?

 

 

 

thats just one equine breed example.

 

selecting for hyper mobile joints in the warmblood has led to another type of disaster.

 

Wonder when the 'PEDIGREE species exposed "  will be going to air?

 

 

 

 

I’d love to see how that poor deformed foal moves. Do you have any more information on it?

[moosmum]

On 24/09/2022 at 12:04 PM, Mitta said:

https://ankc.org.au/media/pdf/635576245799998781_46874502-4466-4fbc-a773-ce37778047d7.pdf The Tibetan Spaniel breed standard has a general requirement that a Tibbies attributes 'must not be exaggerated in any way'.  As far as I know that's always been the guiding principle.

 

 

And its a good one. The problem is what is 'exaggerated' when judged only against whats there in front of you today? Pretty easy to exaggerate a trait over time with out noticing it that way. I imagine breeders of the past would notice a lot of exaggerated features from their time, though not as extreme as some other breeds.

[moosmum]

Neither judges or breeders are to blame for the way things have worked out, they are victims of the separate culture they support.

The expectations of the ANKC culture are what they have signed up to support, not what out siders want. What ANKC demands of its membership is to uphold the standard as they recognize it . Not what it could be, what it was or any value to  traits they are unfamiliar with.

 

When any 'culture' in nature or reality decides its own statehood provides the value to its being, it can only become more like itself. Its directional value is to upholding the state of its being. Selection and evolution is done and entropy will be end result because of that. Its unable to adapt or respond to demand or expectation not allowed for in the selection process. Its only purpose is to maintain its statehood as best it can, with what its got in the state The value of its subjects is in what they bring to the state, not any other purpose.

 

 

[asal]

7 hours ago, moosmum said:

Neither judges or breeders are to blame for the way things have worked out, they are victims of the separate culture they support.

The expectations of the ANKC culture are what they have signed up to support, not what out siders want. What ANKC demands of its membership is to uphold the standard as they recognize it . Not what it could be, what it was or any value to  traits they are unfamiliar with.

 

When any 'culture' in nature or reality decides its own statehood provides the value to its being, it can only become more like itself. Its directional value is to upholding the state of its being. Selection and evolution is done and entropy will be end result because of that. Its unable to adapt or respond to demand or expectation not allowed for in the selection process. Its only purpose is to maintain its statehood as best it can, with what its got in the state The value of its subjects is in what they bring to the state, not any other purpose.

 

 

 

 

you are forgetting the rebels who are ankc members and who refuse to select for the show ring if its detrimental to their dogs. ie whelping problems, and or diverging from the breed as they knew it.  trouble is these rebels tend to be the ones targeted by those  I came to think of as the "thought police."

Edited September 26, 2022 by asal

[asal]

On 25/09/2022 at 7:26 PM, Kirislin said:

I’d love to see how that poor deformed foal moves. Do you have any more information on it?

 

no sorry

 

did copy this for you.

 

Post-legged
When there is insufficient angle between the tibia and cannon bone (hock) and tibia and femur (stifle), the increased stress on tendons and ligaments can cause bog spavin, bone spavin, and osteoarthritis in the hock. This type of hock is easily injured during hard work because of strain on the flexor tendon and upper part of the suspensory ligament. Locked stifles may also occur, as the straight stifle joint causes the patella (kneecap) to slip out of position, ‘locking’ the leg. As it travels, the post-legged horse tends to stab its hind feet into the ground at each stride, leading to cracked hooves, bruised soles, and other hoof problems related to excessive concussion.

[moosmum]

No, I didn't forget.

Thats part of the internal process, why the org. can only get more like 'itself'. These issues breeders are trying to correct are seen as 'foreign bodies' to ANKCs. Its seen as out side influence, being rejected as not belonging to the "Identity" of the organization- Its Characterization.

 

The objective was improvement of Dogs via the use of Pedigrees. That created environmental conditions that would assist breeders to work better. Any value attached to that objective is Subjective.  Value always is. Attachment of a secondary objective is a value judgement on the part of the org. as to its environment, which makes it an 'identity' instead. With its own value judgement.

 

An objective has no value of its own- Any value is given, by its subject beneficiaries. An incorrect application of a 2nd  objective  creates the double negative.

Objectives are negative value (none) An objective state is one separated from its environmental relationships (values) Applying the secondary Objective, is a value. can only further subtract. What had no value, becomes  negative value. The objective is objecting- to its environment. 

 

The statement that dogs not bred under K.C umbrella are not recognized had absolutely nothing to do with what goes on within that org, so is a secondary objective, Characterizing the ANKC by objectifying its membership, as well as their purpose. They work to improve dogs through use of the pedigree system provided, AND do it without relationship or recognition to the environment that does not.

 

Kinda defeats the whole purpose of having dogs, if the environments they belong to and must adapt to  for their value to be recognized as worthy of keeping, is seen as irrelevant to the purpose!

 

Any secondary objective is a value judgment, and can only go to the negative, because thats what objective is. Subtractive of all else. What you describe is subtraction in action.

 

Any identity is responsible for its 'self' , and the relationships it forms in/with its environment. They are value judgements. ANKC recognizes none beyond their constitution, and takes no responsibility for the relationship. When problems  occur, as they must, that constituance 

Edited September 27, 2022 by moosmum

[moosmum]

A value applied to the negative can only express to the negative.

 

Same problem we are seeing with the so called "culture war". Objectifying peoples is an incorrect application of value, and can only be expressed in the negative.

 

So now we are seeing Black women vilified discredited and attacked, for arguing they are not oppressed, that oppression is subjective, in Americas Congress. 

They are no longer seen as representative of their colour. Application of an objective, to an objective and they are fair game . No longer representative of 'Black"

 

So much for CRT, that thinks application of the objective to the color black (in humans) will reverse the negative application of the past. It simply can not result in positive value to black people. It can only result in loss to representation, and fix the condition of oppression. To be recognized as Black, you must accept your  oppression or you don't belong.

It introduces a negative bias, that can only be expressed in the negative.

Edited September 27, 2022 by moosmum

[moosmum]

On 26/09/2022 at 1:09 PM, moosmum said:

 

And its a good one. The problem is what is 'exaggerated' when judged only against whats there in front of you today? Pretty easy to exaggerate a trait over time with out noticing it that way. I imagine breeders of the past would notice a lot of exaggerated features from their time, though not as extreme as some other breeds.

 

I could have put that better.

They are not being judged against 'Dogs" they are being judged against other Tibbies, and what they have become.

There is no relationship acknowledged in that.

 

The closed stud books are a problem, but the thing stopping stopping members recognizing and accepting that is the inherently closed culture of the institution. Its the culture inherent to a double negative. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by moosmum

[Dozer76]

I think it highlighted some issues that should have promoted self-reflection about what ANKC do, why and for whom.  I think there have been some very pertinent points raised that perhaps the dominance of conformation showing in the leadership positions has influenced some extremes to be sought because they are viewed as success in the show ring.

It is an interesting concept given that the majority of members do not show.

While advancements have certainly been made in health and other testing, breeding is still a very subjective process.  People breed for many different reasons with varying levels of responsibility.  But how do you set objective standards in a subjective environment where one could argue there is limited controls in place and most directives and punitive measures are driven by personal opinion and at times, spite and bias.

What is apparent is there is still a way to go, but even if It is done unfairly or in a way with limited justification, sometimes a wake up call and an understanding of perceptions of purebred dogs that isn't protected by an insular view, is not a bad thing and potentially valuable lesson.

[coneye]

Makes me wonder who sets these standards ,,  i like shepards always have ,, but i like the look of  the working line shepard straight back  strong healthy ,, yet   99% of shepards i see on the dog beach every single day  are hunchbacked with short back legs , and  in many cases ,    look like they are a hind leg problem waiting too happen ,, thes dogs are being bred too the hunchback  standard so who sets the rules of what they should be .  especielly when its far removed from the same breed 30 years ago .. Honestly the amount of  timid  hunchback shepards i see breaks my heart for that breed  , i see them every single day ,  because i live opposite   and go on there everyday with my dog ,