Requiring customers to sign agreements regarding desexing?

[10g1k]

Good day.

 

My vastly better looking half contacted a few breeders lately.  One had the temerity to remark that he or she would only sell if the purchasers signed a contract written by them promising to desex/neuter the puppy.

 

This is something I've never heard of before.  And my family were registered breeders for many years.

 

A car salesman doesn't sell a car ONLY if the purchase promises not to put a baby seat in it.

 

A house seller doesn't sell a house ONLY if the purchases agrees not to paint the letterbox.

 

A fruit seller doesn't sell a banana ONLY if the purchaser agrees not to turn it into a smoothie.

 

It seems obvious that a breeder would only issue such a stipulation if they wish to prevent others from becoming breeders also, thereby limiting the competition.  From a purely capitalist perspective, that may be understandable.

 

However, what I do with my dog is my business.  If I wish to become a breeder, I will.  I don't, but that's up to me, and nobody else.  There will always be other breeders who don't have such crazy ideas, and who want my money.

 

Most importantly, beyond the realm of pets: It is ludicrous, and business suicide, to ask a customer to sign some sort of contract restricting what the customer can do with a purchase which becomes the customer's property.  Especially if it involves the product becoming less than completely functional in some manner.

[Dogsfevr]

Well if this is your reply as a wannabe breeder that god help us .I would imagine you will get lots of Nos based on attitude alone .
And buy the way good breeders dont want your money ,they want a great home for the animal they have bred & are liable for for life and ensuring they are placing out there blood,sweat & tears to a home that will show it forever love & be an important family member .
Selling puppies is not a business unless you plan to be a puppy farm that doesnt give a stuff .
Selling puppies comes with a life time committment of care,respect & help.
 

Selling on spay contracts has been norm for many years .
With varying new govt rules WHAT you think your entitled to do may become a shock unless you meet the requirements.In this day & age the Govt will have more rights on what you have to do with your dog & what hoops you will have to jump through .

A breeder is the seller of the goods & they can place restrictions on there pups whether it be limited,mains,spay,not for breeding & why a good breeder knows which animals at times should never ever be bred from or especially done so by people who think there dog they can do what ever which sends Scary red flags on the ethics of what they would bred with .
DNA testing may return results that make a dog never ever suitable to be breed with .
Just because it has reproduction bits doesnt mean it should ever be bred with .

If your family where registered breeders than you should have more empathy in your post about selling living creatures 
 

[Diva]

It’s a pretty common request these days.    So is desexing before sale. Particularly amongst the very popular breeds and those used to produce ‘oodles’. I don’t  know how it stands legally as I have not gone down that route, not as much need for my breed. But it is often seen as being responsible and reducing risk that the pup is going to end up being bred from in bad circumstances. 
 

Maybe that is misguided. But I don’t really think it’s about limiting competition. Maybe for some but not for most. More intended to safeguard the pup and/or the breed and/or the breeders reputation. Also the many rules and laws around breeding these days mean it really isn’t easy for a beginner to do well, things are vastly different from even 15 years ago in a regulatory sense.
 

Not at all good for genetic diversity from my perspective.  But once bitten twice shy tends to prevail, and even breeders are buying the breeding is bad pr. And if you are committed to only the very best (whatever your criteria for that) being bred from, you aren’t going to see every pup you breed as suitable. Worse, breeders have been caught out, and seen pups they were led to believe were going  to loving family homes overbred and badly done by, it doesn’t take too many cases of that to understandably sour one’s perspective. 

 Where I live all dogs have to be desexed by law anyway, unless you can meet the conditions and pay the fairly large cost for a permit to keep them entire. So probably a bit of a moot point here if one is law abiding. 

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Diva

[_PL_]

if you don't want to sign a desexing contract then don't.  It's hardly news or something to get your angry pants on about. 

 

[~Anne~]

It doesn’t matter if you do sign it. You can’t be forced to desex a dog you’ve purchased, after you’ve purchased. They have no legal grounds - just like that car seller who can’t make you put in a child seat. 
 

Most people try to encourage desexing for good reasons though - so be gentle. The are under the mistaken belief that everyone who wants to breed a dog has only $ signs in their eyes. They think desexing stops them ending up in rescues. They believe it stops puppy farmers getting hold of them. They think all ‘non-registered, pedigree breeders’ are animal abusers and or stupid. They think it protects the breed. There’s a million reasons more and only this breeder will know what motivates them to seek such an agreement. 
 

You obviously seem to know all of this so your post serves perhaps only as a vent. You’ve probably picked the wrong audience though….
 

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by ~Anne~

[_PL_]

Anne is right about contracts. They are more like an agreement than an enforceable legal document.

 

While we're here   there's a thread where the poster needs reassurance that they signed a contract with some rather strong demands. 
 

 

[Amazetl]

I think perhaps it depends as sometimes breeders do get one drawn up by a lawyer. If that’s the case do you have to stick to it or not? I would assume so. Best to check everything first for sure. There are many puppies now too that are being sterilised before sale but I would assume you would be told that before buying. 

 

How does the ACT ever breed puppies? What happens if they do that with more states? Wouldn’t puppies become really rare and then eventually gone completely? Or is it not that hard to get a permit? What is happening with the dog world! Dogs are already having trouble and facing extinction with some breeds and probably more in the future and this doesn’t help. 

 

I do think however not everyone should be a breeder and not every dog should be bred of course. How do we make legislation to be the most appropriate? It’s quite worrying. 

[~Anne~]

It doesn't matter if they've wasted their time with a solicitor to draw up a contract for desexing. Buying a dog is a commercial purchase, like a lounge, car or anything else. Dogs are chattel. You cannot enforce anything on the purchaser once its paid for.

 

They can sue you - no doubts about that - especially if you've entered into a contract (written by a legal practitioner or not) that you were fully cognizant of. But how much time and effort that would take would not be viable for them and they could only sue you for breach of contract. But you cant be forced to desex the animal anymore than Harvey Norman can tell me what I can or cant do with my lounge!

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by ~Anne~

[Dogsfevr]

41 minutes ago, Amazetl said:

I think perhaps it depends as sometimes breeders do get one drawn up by a lawyer. If that’s the case do you have to stick to it or not? I would assume so. Best to check everything first for sure. There are many puppies now too that are being sterilised before sale but I would assume you would be told that before buying. 

 

How does the ACT ever breed puppies? What happens if they do that with more states? Wouldn’t puppies become really rare and then eventually gone completely? Or is it not that hard to get a permit? What is happening with the dog world! Dogs are already having trouble and facing extinction with some breeds and probably more in the future and this doesn’t help. 

 

I do think however not everyone should be a breeder and not every dog should be bred of course. How do we make legislation to be the most appropriate? It’s quite worrying. 

Breeders have been fighting legislation very hard,problem is pet owners do bugger all except support the concept off Stop Puppy farm bills which targets everyone & dont understand that the bill also affects aspects of pet ownership so infact many pet owners who complain about there pet owning rights dont care about the Govt aspects.
It has been brought up on many forums about understanding any bill for its entirety & doing submissions but most dont think it applies to them .

Most Govt bills will mean the puppy farms thrive as its a business & they will pay the requirements .

Already in some States is mandatory spaying unless your a member of a certain org,have your vet to say its not in the best interest & prepared to pay the fees your local councils will charge .
Basically what councils will deem is if you own an entire dog you will be treated as a breeder & have to meet the tick box requiremnts IF granted permission to have an entire dog 

[Dogsfevr]

4 minutes ago, ~Anne~ said:

It doesn't matter if they've wasted their time with a solicitor to draw up a contract for desexing. Buying a dog is a commercial purchase, like a lounge, car or anything else. Dogs are chattel. You cannot enforce anything on the purchaser once its paid for.

 

 

One off our puppy buyers is a Big Wig Contract Lawyer & yes they are very enforceable .

[~Anne~]

3 minutes ago, Dogsfevr said:

One off our puppy buyers is a Big Wig Contract Lawyer & yes they are very enforceable .

Cite me a case. 

[Amazetl]

How would they know if you did desex or didn’t? Do they make you provide a receipt/desex certificate? I guess they would. Again, most shouldn’t breed but just talking about contracts here and how they are enforced. 

[DogsAndTheMob]

I think many breeders fear that there dogs will end in the wrong hands.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10209872760852139&id=1726864442&m_entstream_source=timeline

 

https://sheriff.utahcounty.gov/media/sheriffNewsDetails?ID=239619

Edited September 16, 2022 by DogsAndTheMob

[_PL_]

36 minutes ago, DogsAndTheMob said:

I think many breeders fear that there dogs will end in the wrong hands.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10209872760852139&id=1726864442&m_entstream_source=timeline

 

https://sheriff.utahcounty.gov/media/sheriffNewsDetails?ID=239619

While that is a horrible horrible horrible story. Simply awful.     
But why is she so dramatic about his 'at risk of being neutered'? I'd be chomping at the bit to adopt him rather than worry about desexing. He may be a stunning example of the breed so I get that his lines might be valuable to keep. It's just confusing to me.   

[DogsAndTheMob]

9 minutes ago, Powerlegs said:

While that is a horrible horrible horrible story. Simply awful.     
But why is she so dramatic about his 'at risk of being neutered'? I'd be chomping at the bit to adopt him rather than worry about desexing. He may be a stunning example of the breed so I get that his lines might be valuable to keep. It's just confusing to me.   

I’m not sure.

 

She may be opposed to neutering because of the very high rate of cancer in Golden Retrievers and recent research showing that neutering substantially increases the risk of some of the more common cancers in the breed. Vasectomy might be an appropriate compromise.

Edited September 16, 2022 by DogsAndTheMob

[_PL_]

3 minutes ago, DogsAndTheMob said:

I’m not sure.

 

She may be opposed to neutering because of the very high rate of cancer in Golden Retrievers and recent research showing that neutering substantially increases the risk of some of the more common cancers in the breed. Vasectomy might be an appropriate compromise.

Ahh that makes sense. Thank you  

[Amazetl]

How common is getting a vasectomy now? Or any other way to sterilise without harming the hormones? Forgive me as I don’t know a lot about it but have heard that a lot of large breeds they prefer to do that than the traditional neuter these days however I have no idea if all vets do it etc.

[DogsAndTheMob]

24 minutes ago, Amazetl said:

How common is getting a vasectomy now? Or any other way to sterilise without harming the hormones? Forgive me as I don’t know a lot about it but have heard that a lot of large breeds they prefer to do that than the traditional neuter these days however I have no idea if all vets do it etc.

I’m not sure how common vasectomy is, although someone I knew had his German Shepherd vasectomised.

 

Ovary sparing spay is becoming more common. My vet was planning to attend a webinar on it, the last time I spoke to her.

[Deeds]

I have an entire male dog that can't have anaesthetic because of kidney issue.  I have had him chemically castrated with the implant Suplorin a couple of times.  The implants last for 6 or 12 months.  It works quite well.  Less invasive than surgery.

[Papillon Kisses]

Suprelorin effects hormones. I know a number of dogs with anxiety disorders for whom it has been used before deciding whether or not to desex. If their condition/behaviour deteriorates the effect is (hopefully) not permanent; if nothing changes or there’s an improvement then you have more confidence going ahead with operating. Sometimes despite best breeding and puppy-raising you can have an anxious dog for whom those hormones are important for behavioural wellness.