Breed consideration

[Rebanne]

Your neighbours are not going to drop in once they see you don't want that. I think you are looking for the impossible. I've had 5 GSD bitches and all lived peacefully with other dogs and people but would alert bark. This was in town. I had one bitch jump out in front of me on a walk when a man, who we knew, jumped over a creek to come and have a chat. The dog did nothing but stand between me and him. If he moved, she moved. He was a GSD guy so backed off. No training. Just instinct. You are not going to know what you've got until it is an adult.

[coneye]

Start by saying    GSD  well you may be lucky but unless you buy from a European working line chances are  you will not get protection out of it , a dog trainer  for a security company told me they have to import them , most shepards  will not bite its been bred out of them , the ones that do are usually fear biters and you don't want a fear biter ,, Rottys    like i've said had two both excellent gaurd dogs the male would'nt hesitate to bite ,  he done it  but was super freindly , his instinct just told him someone coming over the fence at 2am was a target , he was'nt taught he was just a natural gaurd dog , , my sons heeler   is a GREAT watchdog , he will stand his ground and bark but to be honest he would'nt bite , but  he does have a face  your sort of  got to be willing to take the chance ,, most these other dogs  mentioned are not really gaurd dog s  the irish wolfhound is'nt  you may get lucky you may not ,, Mastiffs especielly the boerbeol would fit , but most mastiffs won't bite either , my mates got two , go to his house and see if you have the guts to  walk past them not many will , they stand and woof and will not budge one iota , scary looking things but  if you have the guts to walk up be prepared to get knocked to the floor and slobbered all over while they lick ya

 

Sounds to me though you are after the impossible , to get a good gaurd dog that will be extremly freindly and actually bite  , will be very difficult   , i suspect its going to be more a suspicous dog  who's wary of strangers you need  , your lab does the job , and too be honset not a bad dog  my nephews got one  that would be excatly what you want , my wife when i first met her had one he was a monster and wa very scary   but very freindly except with me he did'nt like me , given the chance think he would off loved to have ripped me to bits , everyon else he was fine with ,,

 

Personally i think you just have to pick a gaurding breed  ,  sosial lize it well  and hope for the best  that its instincts have not been bred out of it ,

 

Other than that  , just go get a little chiwawa , they will let you know when someone there , so get one of them to warn you and a shotgun to do the rest ,,,  i see a lady every day at the beach with 5 lovely  ridgebacks ,  there  all really freindly though and not aloof at all ,, what you need is a dog thats reasonably aloof with strangers ,, i keep coming back to Rotty or Heeler ,,, but would also  include mastiffs , mainly because of there look

[moosmum]

Agree with Rebanne.  Personal protection is a lost cause for most breeders these days. 

Security personnel look for entirely different traits in their dogs and breed specifically for those- High prey drive being one of the most important for that training, and even then, its no guarantee the dog will work i n real life situations. Those traits make the working bred dogs very unsuited to farm life and are beyond the abilities of most owners who want a companion 1st( or those who expect such a high drive dog to be happy doing its job in a tiny back yard with out having to put any work  in)

This back ground is likely a lot of your reason for distrusting those breeds. Maybe have a good look around at other breeders, get to know more dogs of those breeds. Most breeders selling to the public are aiming for much more social dogs with little potential for aggression and avoid buyers after the dogs for for primarily guarding purposes. As a result, a dog that is capable of being a companion 1st, but not be fazed by an aggressive, threatening person are next to impossible to find. It takes an extremely stable dog to blend those tasks, and Dogs are not generally being bred for that combination.

 

Rotties seem the most reliable choice for that combo today, in general. Security personnel almost always  insist these dogs will not step up with out training. I disagree, IF you can find the right one.

I had my own line going for a number of years, but it took me 7 years just to find the 1st. I looked for a female after hearing they were much less likely to step up, but did it better if you could find one, on the assumption that she would pass the traits needed more reliably. It worked, but the lines gone since finding a male suitable to carry on was impossible. People had unrealistic ideas of how the traits needed  manifest in their dogs and/or registered breeders are not open to allowing stud service of their tested pedigrees to dogs not contributing to that system. Or to the idea dogs bred out side a pedigree system could possibly have a purpose of any value.

 

A huge loss IMO I am still struggling with as these dogs filled multiple roles here and in homes they were sold into.

 

The individual dog is more important than its breed. The dogs you mistrust, you are not seeing from their owners perspective, but from the perspective of an out sider to their duties. my dogs would alert until I got to the gate, keeping people out but once admitted they would be greeted with wagging tails, being asked  for pats. They were safe at kids/adult parties, jam sessions, bonfires and bush trails and so outwardly friendly we had  to give 'Demos' to teen visitors to teach them not to assume harmlessness.

 

These dogs always stepped up- not always when people expected it. They assess the threat. A good working dog does the job naturally. My job was to ensure they did it how and when I  wanted. I had final say and dogs whos intention was not aggression, just protection. When they needed to show aggression, it was always proportionate- so never had a bite or even a nip. Jumping in front of me with a warning bark was most usual.

Instances when the job was done include sitting a huge man down when jumped from his seat to follow me after being asked to sit. Having an intruder huddled into a fetal position till my son got to him, A man jumping the front fence and running towards me while I working in the paddock was greeted by my dog running straight towards him full pelt until he stopped, then escorted him to me at a walk, and alerting me to man outside our yard with a tomahawk at dusk then staying with us while we spoke to the man and kept him from his attempts to come in. Same dog was about to be put away for a visitor who was terrified of dogs and he was a giant! He didn't get put away, because he sensed her fear and just about crawled to her feet where he practically melted to show her he was not a threat, shoving his huge head under her hand.( she got a dog soon after!)

 

My point is I guess, is that these dogs are not easy to find, require far more stability than your average pet, and may be more than you are prepared for. If you can find what you are after tho', they are unbeatable dogs to have in your life. I have a standing offer to buy me any dog I find, money no object, if I can replicate it again. I am not hopeful.

 

There is thread titled 'a girl and her dog" where I posted pics of my last girl with my grand daughter. Might ease your fears of the guardian breeds seeing how they do their job with children. Visiting children were even protected from their angry parents, if they over stepped discipline. ie an angry father yelling at his kids who were piled on the floor with the dog at the time. She stayed down while he yelled. And yelled, and yelled. Then she got up slowly,  gave a gentle growl, and laid back down with the kids when he turned away and said  "I've been told".

 

Aloof would not have been as safe, more suspicion wasn't what I needed.

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by moosmum

[Amazetl]

Thanks guys for more info. Whatever dog I would get, its needs would be met, whether that’s obedience or agility or tracking etc. I’m not interesting in training for protection work though. 

 

I don’t really want a dog who will actually bite, but one who would just stand in front and look scary.

 

I had a man jump the fence in the middle of the night when I happened to be outside with my Lab who did just that. I didn’t even have time to react, my dog just saw how out of the usual it was and stood in front of me, stretching his body out to make it look big and took a stance, deep deep bark that I hadn’t ever heard from him before then and a warning to not come close to me. The man was visibly taken aback. We were in the night sky and my dog is a choc lab so wouldn’t have been able to see him too well. The man ran off right away. 

 

But he is a Lab. I don’t know but I think he’s more protective than a usual lab. He’s also much larger than the average lab. But he is also really friendly with everyone except when something is out of place. He meant business. I doubt he would have done more than bail up though. 

 

He has also protected other dogs from dogs. He took on a German Shepherd by standing in front of a smaller dog who was with us and pushing the Shepherd back with his body without touching the dog. The dog came at us again, wasn’t aggressive but was trying to get to the little dog. He pushed him back again and at that point the shepherd (thankfully) decided to run off, not scared but looked like he figured it wasn’t worth it. I was glad because my lab has never laid a paw or teeth on any dog and I don’t think he’s capable of doing that so would be horrible in an actual fight. 

 

Another time he body slammed an aggressive approaching dog who was flipped in the air in the process and stunned then ran off. 

 

I don’t believe there ever is one dog breed that will fit perfectly for everything but if I go down this track I want to get the best breed that would most likely fit the best. I know that not every dog bred to have that guarding instinct will necessarily actually have it. That’s why I was thinking of a more larger dog who just by looks can make people not want to step forward. 

 

I hear lots of stories of some people who have odd neighbours who come looking around and sometimes frequently. So it’s not about so and so I know but just anyone in the area who feels they might have a look. My retrievers are all inside when I’m out but I want them to be safe too and not have anyone see them and think they can take them for all sorts of reasons. I don’t know how it is now but I know in the past there were warnings about labs in particular being stolen for baits in dog fighting. It is probably not going to actually happen but due to my sometimes paranoia concerning the dogs I just would prefer to have a larger dog who would deter a lot of people just through their size and deep bark. 

[moosmum]

Your lab sounds like a great dog.

 

If it comes to looking at pups for myself, I look for low prey drive, very confident curious and not easily startled or intimidated. Not aggressive with litter mates but managing to avoid conflict with the bullies of the litter. Not the pup who dominates littermates, or the one who backs down. Just stands his/her ground and seems to have that respected. 

Friendly and interested in you, but even more so when you communicate. Ask some thing of the pup, and reward him for his understanding, see if he appreciates instruction and comes back for more.

Its not easy assessing pups on one visit, so ask plenty of questions of the breeder concerning what you are looking for, look to the parents. And its still pot luck.

 

If you pull up and see a pup run to stand in front of the owner or other pups to bark, hes worth checking out for the rest, though if they are  used to visitors, thats not the go to reaction either!  My daughter used to visit and would stomp around with arms raised  making weird zombie noises to get their reactions  Not advised around unfamiliar parent dogs.

Edited September 7, 2022 by moosmum

[moosmum]

Would you be looking for a pup specifically, or would you consider a young rehome? They come up fairly often in breeds being mentioned, and some times after a good start in similar conditions as you would provide.

 

You haven't mentioned Dobes. Same issues as the other guardian breeds?

Edited September 7, 2022 by moosmum

[Amazetl]

I have never met one. I do much prefer them natural with their ears. I know a lot about dogs but years ago I had no idea that their ears weren’t naturally pricked up. That shows how little research I’ve ever done on them. I really don’t know much about them. 

 

I was thinking probably a pup so that they can integrate well with the current dogs but I’m not against a mature dog. 

 

Thanks for the interesting tips on selecting a puppy with more potential for having the guarding instinct. 

[Purdie]

Rescue pups

 

https://www.petrescue.com.au/listings/search/dogs?age=puppy&incompatible_with_dogs=true&interstate=true&per_page=20&size[]=30&state_id[]=3

 

 

[tdierikx]

You mentioned that you felt intimidated by Rotties... so there's your answer... get a Rotti...

 

I've owned many Rotties over the years, and when I'm ready for another pup to join my family, it will be a Rotti too.

 

I've found that the males tend to be somewhat gentler in nature than the girls - and both the boys I've owned have been pretty useless as guard dogs per se, but just their presence is usually enough for strangers to think twice about doing anything silly.

 

Most of my Rotties have also been exceptionally good at mixing with other dogs and dog breeds - many actually helped raise some of the many rescue foster pups I've had over the years too.

 

If you get a well bred Rotti and raise it as a family member (similar to how you raise your Labs), you don't need to train for more protection or guarding, as they will naturally defend their family members... usually by placing themselves between you and any perceived danger (just like your Lab did). They are also not generally big barkers, only occasionally giving a warning bark if necessary to alert to something amiss. Most Rotties also love to hang out with their family and sleep on the bed, etc... so make sure you have enough room to share there... *grin*

 

I'm assuming that any dog you do decide on will be taken on as a pup, and you will raise in your own preferred method to suit your own needs in that regard... so I don't see how a Rotti pup will be any different to raising your Labs. The only real difference will be how other people see a Rotti as opposed to their general perception of a Labrador... personally, I have found that the 2 breeds are not really that much different as family pets, it is only OUR perception of each breed that changes there.

 

I would refrain from looking at size or "look" too deeply with regards to your selection of dog based on your needs... the breed that will most perfectly suit what you have listed here is actually a Rotti, no question...

 

T.

[moosmum]

Agreed!

 

Though if a Dobe is more acceptable, It maybe worth looking into lines known to be animal friendly. Possibly a close second.

Edited September 8, 2022 by moosmum

[Amazetl]

Interesting, I will do some more research. Thanks.