Are the pups of a Miniature Poodle bred with a Toy Poodle considered a cross breed?

[Yeesh]

I’ve come into contact with a breeder that has purebred miniature poodles. They’ve made the decision to mate their female miniature with a toy male. They’ve said she is a small miniature and that for her health believe it was a better option than mating her with their miniature male. Would the pups still be considered pure bred, or is mixing poodle sizes considered to be cross breeding? Are there more risks involved with doing this or if both mum and dad are both healthy and DNA cleared is this ok?

[Rebanne]

you wouldn't get any papers with them. If the bitch is too small for the standard then they really shouldn't breed her. But yes, I would consider the pups pure bred poodles. I don't think it's ethical. I think it's a money spinner. Please make sure the parents are fully health tested and you see the original results and get a copy to keep if you go ahead with this.

[Pjrt]

If I’m not mistaken poodles are 1 breed categorised by size across the 3 sizes. They are not 3 breeds, rather 1 breed with 3 sizes variants each classed within minimum & maximum height range. … (4 sizes in some parts of the world, where there is a size between mini & standard.  If the dog is destined to be a pet, then I see no issue at all regarding the eventual size of the offspring. As mentioned above double check all the health testing. 

 

[Luvapoo]

Provided both parents healthy and DNA cleared as you have mentioned, there is no reason to be concerned. 

 

As @Podgus stated, the terms simply relate to size. Under 11 inches is toy, 11 to 15 is Miniature, and over 15 is Standard. In Australia.

 

I once had a mains pedigree male registered as a Toy that grew to 13 inches. He was too big for my girls sadly. He was a beauty.

 

[Salukifan]

The ANKC considers each of the recognized sizes of poodle to be separate breeds.

 

Interbreeding is not permitted. To do so would be a breach of the Code of Ethics. 
 

The pups from such a mating would be considered crossbred.  

Edited April 27, 2022 by Salukifan

[OzzieLioness]

My aunt had miniature poodles for as long as I could remember. There was only once she bred a miniature girl she had and it was mated with a toy. She had 2 puppies. One was small like it's sire - but the other one could sit in the palm of a SMALL hand when it "grew up" I have no idea what went wrong - he was perfectly proportioned; just incredibly, ridiculously small (except for the testicles, which were a toy poodle size on a TINY dog and just for his health, he was neutered). I never thought it was right to breed her like that.

[asal]

On 27/04/2022 at 6:44 PM, Salukifan said:

The ANKC considers each of the recognized sizes of poodle to be separate breeds.

 

Interbreeding is not permitted. To do so would be a breach of the Code of Ethics. 
 

The pups from such a mating would be considered crossbred.  

 

interesting,   many decades and I do mean many, 1960 I think? friend bred toy poodles, and I think she told me she reregistered the over height ones in the litter as miniatures? which since they are the same breed made more sense than restricting the gene pool as it is now, especially with all the concentration about maintaining genetic diversity within the breeds?

[asal]

On 30/04/2022 at 1:37 PM, OzzieLioness said:

My aunt had miniature poodles for as long as I could remember. There was only once she bred a miniature girl she had and it was mated with a toy. She had 2 puppies. One was small like it's sire - but the other one could sit in the palm of a SMALL hand when it "grew up" I have no idea what went wrong - he was perfectly proportioned; just incredibly, ridiculously small (except for the testicles, which were a toy poodle size on a TINY dog and just for his health, he was neutered). I never thought it was right to breed her like that.

 

surely she had more chance of an easy delivery bred to a toy than her own size?  I have seen many litters with big differences in size of the puppies in many breeds, not just poodles.  some mini's stay so small they are too small for the miniature ring.   some toys too large for the toy ring.

As for chihuahua's, unreal. a friends girl I was looking after was certainly on the large size, as in 6lb - 2.7 kg. she was beginning to look like a rock melon and expressed my concern about how big she was getting.  when she did go into labor no pups were coming to raced to the vet he said  she was so full of pups she just couldn't push and she had 10. believe it or not.  from that litter some grew to 2.7 kg like their mum, others only to 1.2   kg, that's a huge difference in sizes. many litters do that in the small breeds more so than the larger breeds of dog I think?

 

[OzzieLioness]

On 04/05/2022 at 12:16 PM, asal said:

 

surely she had more chance of an easy delivery bred to a toy than her own size?  I have seen many litters with big differences in size of the puppies in many breeds, not just poodles.  some mini's stay so small they are too small for the miniature ring.   some toys too large for the toy ring.

As for chihuahua's, unreal. a friends girl I was looking after was certainly on the large size, as in 6lb - 2.7 kg. she was beginning to look like a rock melon and expressed my concern about how big she was getting.  when she did go into labor no pups were coming to raced to the vet he said  she was so full of pups she just couldn't push and she had 10. believe it or not.  from that litter some grew to 2.7 kg like their mum, others only to 1.2   kg, that's a huge difference in sizes. many litters do that in the small breeds more so than the larger breeds of dog I think?

 

Oh the delivery was no problem for the dog.

 

It was this 1 kg dog that she'd bred - weirdest thing I've ever seen. Perfectly proportioned (except for the testes) but incredibly small! I was always terrified when I visited and could not see where he was - thought I'd tread on him and kill him! 

 

I think it must be a small breeds thing, after reading what you said - and others I have heard about!