bull terrier tail kinked and curly

[silverstreak]

MY dog is purebred from a reputable breeder  she is  on the limited register. I have been asked quite a few times from people with bull terriers if she is a crossbreed. She has a very fine build with long skinny legs and a snipe head and pig jaw. She also has a long kinked curly tail. She has developed startle aggression and is now medicated for it. The breeder told me she is a throwback from a 5th  or 6th  generation of terrier type dogs. We paid a lot of money for her and several people have said we should get a partial refund. Her trainer said she is a soft dog as she has a lot of anxiety and fears we are working through.I know genetics play a big part so is it possible for her to be a throwback  from a 5th or 6th generation

[Rebanne]

Anything is possible in any living thing. How old is she and what age was she desexed? I don't know what a pig jaw is but it sounds like she's on limited for a reason. Everything you have said can occur in any dog and any breed. It comes under the sh!t happens catergory. I've owned a couple. I don't see why you should get any sort of refund, depending on what was discussed between you and the breeder and what was in the contract. Costs the same to rear a limited pup as main registered pup. It is entirely possible to get throwbacks. You could get a DNA test done through Orivet, this would at least settle your mind as to her purity.

[tdierikx]

Are you able to upload a photo of your girl? Also, what is her name?

 

T.

[silverstreak]

Not posting a photo or name.JUst wanted to know if throwback from that far back was possible.Rebanne answered my question

 

[Teebs]

If you're not sure, get a DNA test done (and report back here! I'm very curious)

 

My girl is very soft, my boy wasn't. 

 

They are also prone to OCD, have you got someone qualified with the breed working with you?

[sandgrubber]

Throwback seems unlikely.   The breed mixing for bull terriers mostly took place in the 19th century.  I think some other breeds got mixed in later to get colors, but I don't think any curly tail species were used.  So there have been a few hundred generations for the curly tail to be culled out. 

 

Genetic testing would be a good idea.

[Rebanne]

Kinked/curly tails can pop up at any time.

[JRG]

Agreed.  Tail deformity can occur (developmentally) in any breed.  It also depends on what you mean by a “curly tail”.

as an aside - does anyone know if Bull Terrier tails were ever docked?

[Selkie]

It is possible for a new mutation / recessive gene to pop up, even after many generations.

[silverstreak]

[Rebanne]

Can see the kink, very common thing in all dogs. And yes doesn't carry the tail correctly for the breed, which also happens a lot. Back in the day it was called gay tail but I don't think you can say that anymore.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Rebanne

[sheena]

1 hour ago, silverstreak said:

i cant see the photo

[sandgrubber]

On 07/04/2022 at 11:15 AM, JRG said:

Agreed.  Tail deformity can occur (developmentally) in any breed.

But not as a 5 or 6 generation throwback.  

[JRG]

15 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

But not as a 5 or 6 generation throwback.  

In one litter, I had a pup with a kinked tail and there is no history of that in my lines.  It was interesting because you could tell where the tail and back legs had developed in the embryo because of the markings and in this case, the tail had developed wrapped round the right rear leg.

[~Anne~]

16 hours ago, sheena said:

i cant see the photo

Same. I can’t see probably 2/3rds of images posted to this forum though. 

[persephone]

17 hours ago, sheena said:

i cant see the photo

me either ...

 

[sandgrubber]

6 hours ago, JRG said:

In one litter, I had a pup with a kinked tail and there is no history of that in my lines.  It was interesting because you could tell where the tail and back legs had developed in the embryo because of the markings and in this case, the tail had developed wrapped round the right rear leg.

Developmental abnormality?  If a throwback it would be far more than 5-6 generations.  Would have to be a pretty horrible breeder to put a dog with a congenital defect on main register...or to breed from such a dog in the time before main register was introduced.

[DogsAndTheMob]

Is there a recessive gene for kinked tail? If so, the gene could be present in the breed at a low level, passed down undetected for many generations and only expressed when two dogs carrying the gene are bred together. Prior to DNA testing, it was almost impossible to entirely eliminate recessive genes from a breed - hence the continued occurrence of white GSDs and fluffy Pembroke Corgis.

This is an interesting research article on the frequency of recessive genes in various dog breeds.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0223995#pone.0223995.s005

Looking at the supplementary tables, it’s surprising how many breeds (e.g. bull terriers) include individuals carrying the gene for taillessness. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by DogsAndTheMob

[sandgrubber]

Here's one on kinked tail

https://dognews.com/Veterinarian-Merry-Fitzgerald-discusses-spinal-anomalies-from-hemivertebra-to-kinked-tails-in-dogs

 

seems it may be autosomal recessive...thus I was wrong in previous post.  Could possibly trace back to ancestral bulldog population. More information on the kink required.

[Rebanne]

I saw the picture. The tail was carried high, gay tail, and the kink was towards the tip of the tail. I had worse on a greyhound pup I bred. And I've seen much worse. Kink would have been there from birth.