Syringomyelia in Cavaliers

[Scarlettsmum]

Hi all, I am extremely interested in purchasing a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel for my next dog in the near future. I've been told terrible things about syringomyelia being very prevalent in this lovely breed, so much so that Norway has actually banned the breeding of them. 

 

Can anyone on here enlighten me? Are there breeders who keep records of the percentage of syringomyelia in their lines? I have had my heart broken many times by having dogs with hip dysplasia, Addison's Disease and retinal atrophy so I'm super sensitive about health issues.

 

Hoping to hear from some breeders, thanks for reading.

 

 

[Rebanne]

Pretty sure most ethical breeders are keeping a close on that disease. I believe an MRI can help pick it up. Ask them about any health tests they have done, howlong their dogs lived to and what they died from.

Hip and elbow dysplasia and Addisons fall under the sh!t happens umbrella. Dogs for generations can have clear hips and elbows and boom, a bad one pops up. I don't know if the eye problem could have been picked up with genetic testing. I've had a couple of real lemons in my life. I'm still in dogs.

[Pjrt]

The only way to actually diagnose CM is with MRI scanning read by someone who really knows a thing about it. I truly believe ALL registered CKCS should be scanned at a certain age as a routine health test before breeding. 
CM is a condition of degrees. The dog doesn’t have to have major visible symptoms like screaming and air scratching to be affected. Breeders who say ‘ oh my dogs are not affected’ are usually basing this on how their dogs behave and the feedback they have on pups they’ve bred. The ONLY way they can honestly say they’ve done all they can is if they scan their breeding dogs. 
As a groomer of over 30 yrs, I honestly wouldn’t go near the breed. One of the saddest unhealthiest breeds I can think of from what I’ve seen on my grooming table over the years. 

[Scarlettsmum]

2 hours ago, Podgus said:

The only way to actually diagnose CM is with MRI scanning read by someone who really knows a thing about it. I truly believe ALL registered CKCS should be scanned at a certain age as a routine health test before breeding. 
CM is a condition of degrees. The dog doesn’t have to have major visible symptoms like screaming and air scratching to be affected. Breeders who say ‘ oh my dogs are not affected’ are usually basing this on how their dogs behave and the feedback they have on pups they’ve bred. The ONLY way they can honestly say they’ve done all they can is if they scan their breeding dogs. 
As a groomer of over 30 yrs, I honestly wouldn’t go near the breed. One of the saddest unhealthiest breeds I can think of from what I’ve seen on my grooming table over the years. 

Why do you say they're sad and unhealthy? I'd love to read your thoughts.

[Pjrt]

27 minutes ago, Scarlettsmum said:

Why do you say they're sad and unhealthy? I'd love to read your thoughts.

so many health problems. Big ones of course are MVD and CM /SM   Those alone would be enough to put me off. 

Then there’s eye problems, breathing problems, skin problems, ear problems, structural issues, feet tend to break down, naso-digital  hyperkeratosis is pretty common, short life span and as a groomer I can tell you many of them have insane coats once desexed. Many of them bark a LOT too! 

you might be lucky and get one of those things, or some of those things, or pretty much all of those things. 
I find they start off fairly vibrant happy little things with nice coats but go down hill pretty fast. 
I really wish it were different. They have lovely temperaments if you’re after a fairly soft dog, but that’s where it ends for me 

[Scarlettsmum]

4 hours ago, Podgus said:

so many health problems. Big ones of course are MVD and CM /SM   Those alone would be enough to put me off. 

Then there’s eye problems, breathing problems, skin problems, ear problems, structural issues, feet tend to break down, naso-digital  hyperkeratosis is pretty common, short life span and as a groomer I can tell you many of them have insane coats once desexed. Many of them bark a LOT too! 

you might be lucky and get one of those things, or some of those things, or pretty much all of those things. 
I find they start off fairly vibrant happy little things with nice coats but go down hill pretty fast. 
I really wish it were different. They have lovely temperaments if you’re after a fairly soft dog, but that’s where it ends for me 

Thank you for your response Podgus.

[jemappelle]

As you can see from my profile pic, I am a Cavalier owner.  My last girl lived until just over 13 when she succumbed to MVD - she'd had a heart murmur since 8 but was not on medication until the final few weeks.  With recent research and the recommendation of early medication, Cavs are predicted to live about 18 months longer.  I think 13 is great for any breed!  My friend has a Cavalier who will be 14 in July and has been on heart medication since she was first diagnosed at about 9 years of age.  There has been no change in the dog's murmur during this time.  Fortunately for me, none of my dogs have been diagnosed with any of the other problems at this stage - my current two dogs are 5 and 6 years.

 

While the breed does have a lot of health problems, reputable breeders are right on top of the testing.  There are many Cavalier Facebook pages where you could get more information.

 

Lots of breeds have health problems, and as my vet once said to me, there is no guarantee with any living thing.

[Scarlettsmum]

4 hours ago, jemappelle said:

As you can see from my profile pic, I am a Cavalier owner.  My last girl lived until just over 13 when she succumbed to MVD - she'd had a heart murmur since 8 but was not on medication until the final few weeks.  With recent research and the recommendation of early medication, Cavs are predicted to live about 18 months longer.  I think 13 is great for any breed!  My friend has a Cavalier who will be 14 in July and has been on heart medication since she was first diagnosed at about 9 years of age.  There has been no change in the dog's murmur during this time.  Fortunately for me, none of my dogs have been diagnosed with any of the other problems at this stage - my current two dogs are 5 and 6 years.

 

While the breed does have a lot of health problems, reputable breeders are right on top of the testing.  There are many Cavalier Facebook pages where you could get more information.

 

Lots of breeds have health problems, and as my vet once said to me, there is no guarantee with any living thing.

Thank you, I love this breed so much......I need to do more research I think.

[julesluvscavs]

Quote

 

Unfortunately our Miah had it, very severely.. Her breeder was beyond devastated and had not been aware of it, she had never had it in any of her lines previously. She was a very genuine and ethical registered breeder who did test for heart issues/eyes/patella issues etc .She was very supportive through it all and even came when we took her to have a MRI to diagnose it. Her breeder never bred again after finding out about Miah. It would be hard to test every dog with SM as it doesn't always show up until later.
We kept her comfortable for a few years with heaps of tablets that she had to have every few hours and CBD oil to help calm her down. Especially when the atmospheric  pressure was high. Its the worst thing to go through, its absolutely hell for them and us. I had never had it with our previous cavaliers. (One did have a spine condition that came on suddenly)  Miah ended up dying suddenly and unexpentantly from a ruptured spleen tumour we had no idea about, So her life was never going last long  We did have lots of good times as well with her so we don't regret that we had her in our lives even if was for a very short time.
In hindsight, we thought there was a problem going on (before her diagnosis) and we tried various things to settle her behaviours. Nothing would work. I thought she was excited when we walked her but she was crying in pain we later learnt! When they have it severely they cant be over stimulated.
I could go on about this in detail but its still painful for me.
I was very reluctant to get another Cavalier (we do have an old one (Toby) without any issues) but we did get another one and so far so good.. she's showing no signs. We are very aware of what SM presents. 
Most dogs with SM also have an Ear condition also which can be operated on. Primary Secretory Otitis Media (PSOM)
As for operating on dogs with SM our canine Neurologist said he stopped doing the operations for it as it comes back.
Its from their head having the chari formation (Humans can have it too) but not all will develop into SM hence why not all Cavaliers and some other breeds will ever develop it..
There are also different degrees of severity with it from mild to very intense... its extremely painful for them like having a severe migraine.. Its a very expensive condition  if you persist with it like we did.
I still love Cavaliers. There's never any guarantees with any dog or humans' health. Sometimes you just get unlucky!
One of our previous Cavs had a heart murmur but it was still only grade 1 when she passed away and she was never on medication for it.
Many Good breeders will be vigilant about all their other health issues and try to keep on top of them but with SM it's harder. 




 

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by julesluvscavs

[OzzieLioness]

 

 

On 23/03/2022 at 3:53 PM, Podgus said:

so many health problems. Big ones of course are MVD and CM /SM   Those alone would be enough to put me off. 

Then there’s eye problems, breathing problems, skin problems, ear problems, structural issues, feet tend to break down, naso-digital  hyperkeratosis is pretty common, short life span and as a groomer I can tell you many of them have insane coats once desexed. Many of them bark a LOT too! 

you might be lucky and get one of those things, or some of those things, or pretty much all of those things. 
I find they start off fairly vibrant happy little things with nice coats but go down hill pretty fast. 
I really wish it were different. They have lovely temperaments if you’re after a fairly soft dog, but that’s where it ends for me 

 

We have been considering a Cav ... but this has been very enlightening, so thank you for talking about your experiences ....

 

I had a Saint with so many problems, I had not choice but to end his suffering ... and I have not been ready for another dog until now .... I don't know if I could cope well if this sort of thing happened again.

[julesluvscavs]

Cavaliers are defiantly not sad dogs if being looked after and loved properly, quite the opposite! I have owned many over the years. Always been fun, love life and people, smart, happy go lucky! I've got thousands of Pics and Videos to prove it  

Edited March 24, 2022 by julesluvscavs

[JOLEY]

On 23/03/2022 at 12:50 PM, Podgus said:

As a groomer of over 30 yrs, I honestly wouldn’t go near the breed. One of the saddest unhealthiest breeds I can think of from what I’ve seen on my grooming table over the years. 

As a ANKC exhibitor/breeder of 29yrs, owner of a few Cavs over the years (not my main breed) and a long time groomer I have never come across a sad Cav. If anything it's the one breed in my opinion that the temperament has never changed. 

 

I've also found that while they do have known health conditions in the breed the vast majority I've had dealings with have been generally healthy. It's a breed that the majority of ANKC breeders are very diligent about doing their best to eradicate these things from the breed.

[Scarlettsmum]

Thank you for your input everyone. I absolutely LOVE cavs........I guess I just have to find a diligent breeder with a history of the least problems and who does all the health tests. 

[Dogsfevr]

We groom stacks & board many more ,many get spay coat like many other breeds its not Cavalier specific .Rarely in Cavies have I had a spay coat that wasn’t easy to strip out .
Non have died young,had any major health issues .
Cavaliers are good sporting spaniels ,like any breed with flop ears can be a higher risk off ear issues .
They thrive at dog sports ,have there quirky method off talking but agree with others not a SAD breed but not the breed for everyone .

A few friends have lost there oldies recen5ly aged 14 to nearly 17 years .

They are certainly a breed that owners can over spoil .

GOOD breeders certainly test & as mentioned SM is a tricky & testing has no always been easy or readily available with MRI .Its not a case off ringing the vet tomorrow to test it can be a slow process for every dog to ever be MRI tested due to the lack off machines Aussie .

 

The breed clubs are a wealth off knowledge in this situation and honest about health testing ,the breed as expected has breeders and breeders .

Buy with your head not your heart .

Edited March 26, 2022 by Dogsfevr

[jemappelle]

Only one of mine has had an ear infection and that was the first girl, when she was young so a long time ago.  I am diligent when bathing them though, to keep the water out and dry their ears thoroughly.  I also clip lightly inside the air and feed a good quality diet.  Hopefully that works or I have been extremely lucky!

[asal]

On 24/03/2022 at 9:37 PM, OzzieLioness said:

 

 

 

We have been considering a Cav ... but this has been very enlightening, so thank you for talking about your experiences ....

 

I had a Saint with so many problems, I had not choice but to end his suffering ... and I have not been ready for another dog until now .... I don't know if I could cope well if this sort of thing happened again.

 

 

love cav's they are the eternal optimist.  once you have had one its definitely addictive, but remember they aren't great on recall and utterly no traffic sense so never go out without being on a lead.

 

you can be lucky and have no problems, my first made it to 17 as did many of his sons and daughters.

 

but every time you use an outside male its a gamble that at times does not pay off.

 

my last two I bred both developed MV at 7. one is still fine 4 years later on medication. the other died within weeks

 

After two pups developed SM I called it quits.

 

I so hope it can be eliminated from such adorable dogs.

 

 

if you get one, keep an eye on their teeth too.   great tarter collectors so need regular checks

Edited March 26, 2022 by asal

[Scarlettsmum]

On 26/03/2022 at 2:30 PM, asal said:

 

 

love cav's they are the eternal optimist.  once you have had one its definitely addictive, but remember they aren't great on recall and utterly no traffic sense so never go out without being on a lead.

 

you can be lucky and have no problems, my first made it to 17 as did many of his sons and daughters.

 

but every time you use an outside male its a gamble that at times does not pay off.

 

my last two I bred both developed MV at 7. one is still fine 4 years later on medication. the other died within weeks

 

After two pups developed SM I called it quits.

 

I so hope it can be eliminated from such adorable dogs.

 

 

if you get one, keep an eye on their teeth too.   great tarter collectors so need regular checks

After 2 expensive trips to the vet for my current dog's teeth, we now feed Greenies and no longer need to have teeth cleaned.

[goldw]

Quote

 

To Scarlettsmum. Well, first of all, find an experienced breeder that would welcome your calls if you have questions or you need advice if problems arise. As a pet person, someone wanting a family dog (I presume, you’re not looking to earn ribbons in the show ring or possible OTCH material.)  And who health tests both sire & dam and is active in the hobby.  Advice that applies to any breed. As for Cavalier breeders with a ‘history of the least Syringomyelia problems,’  no such thing  —not enough data exist in your country or mine (America), best I can tell as a scientist. For any genetic disease actually & any breed. Currently. We only see the defects that have surfaced because of bad luck and inbreeding. But what you can do is join a Cavalier club, go to shows & trials, read up on them before you plunge in and go looking for a dog. And you leave your wallet at home!  Hope this helps. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[asal]

On 08/04/2022 at 6:14 AM, goldw said:

To Scarlettsmum. Well, first of all, find an experienced breeder that would welcome your calls if you have questions or you need advice if problems arise. As a pet person, someone wanting a family dog (I presume, you’re not looking to earn ribbons in the show ring or possible OTCH material.)  And who health tests both sire & dam and is active in the hobby.  Advice that applies to any breed. As for Cavalier breeders with a ‘history of the least Syringomyelia problems,’  no such thing  —not enough data exist in your country or mine (America), best I can tell as a scientist. For any genetic disease actually & any breed. Currently. We only see the defects that have surfaced because of bad luck and inbreeding. But what you can do is join a Cavalier club, go to shows & trials, read up on them before you plunge in and go looking for a dog. And you leave your wallet at home!  Hope this helps. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

blaming inbreeding for everything is just avoiding the real issue.

 

parents carrying one or two copies of a fault are the problem and is easier to say the negative result was because of "inbreeding" which supposedly using related parents caused it, when in fact the only "relationship" in many cases was although unrelated they did carry the problem.

 

anyone working in labs know of strains of lab animals that are so inbred, really inbred, to the extent dna sequencing is so close they can do skin and organ transplants without any tissue rejection.

 

the difference is these strains carry no deleterious genes or they would have died out long ago.

 

the labs breeding such strains are very conscious of  selecting for health from the 1st generation.

 

something the dog show world still has not learnt. to the everlasting shame of breeds that struggle to find even some individuals free of known deleterious genes. the majority being two copies with the very occasional with one copy.

 

saw a cavalier breeder announcing two of their males in the world thus far to have been discovered to  have only one copy each of the MVVD gene. which is believed the marker indicates higher rate of mitral valve disease at a younger age. It has become so prevalent in the breed.

 

 

 

[Mairead]

Agree with asal re inbreeding. Most humans are not closely related yet there are hundreds of inherited disorders. I have an inherited disease caused by one copy of a dominant gene. No amount of unrelatedness would have changed the outcome. Although some testing is available in rich countries, humans don't usually do any considered selection before breeding.

Most dog breeders do some sort of selection but that will restrict the gene pool. No way to avoid that and it is not necessarily a bad thing. "All Syrian Golden hamsters used in laboratories are descended from the litters of one male and three females that were found in Syria in 1930. The first colonies, which descended from three litter mates, were bred at Hebrew University in Jerusalem and introduced into England from there." (Guinea pigs and other laboratory animals by Gloria R Moseeson and Sheldon Scher). Some endangered species have been brought back from the brink of extinction using small numbers of animals. The Arabian Oryx was brought back from three wild and four captive animals.

The modern-day Chinook dog breed descended from the eleven individuals remaining in 1981, three of them siblings, three half-siblings, and all descended from four common ancestors within one generation, so some crossbreeding was done "based on a perceived limitation of genetic diversity". (The Dog and its Genome edited by Elaine A. Ostrander, Urs Giger and Kerstin Lindblad-Toh)

It is not just dog breeders that may lack knowledge. A very well known magazine column doctor appeared not to know the difference between inherited and congenital disorders.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Mairead