Desperately Need Help - Cocker Spaniel

[MolassesLass]

molasseslass - Im not sure i know what you mean, are you saying we should fuss Millie more than jess, i thought favouring one would be bad, especially if jess thinks she's the top dog and we give more attention to millie?

You need to find out exactly who is top dog between the acutal dogs in your pack. You then need to pat this dog first, feed it first etc. It may be hard to tell at the moment because your dogs are constantly fighting to change position (not actually fighting, but they might if the confusion continues). So perhaps a consult with a local behaviouralist (not BarkBusters though) is in order, this way you should get a professional opinion on who is top dog and then how to make sure everyone knows their place and is happy in it.

[Poppy's mum]

My timid female Ginger did the nervous peeing thing until 8-9 months, then it just stopped like magic. (I should confess I only got her at 7 months).

I had always assumed it was a bladder control thing as she gets very excited. I just used to meet her on the tiles or in the garage (rather than on the carpet) and made no particular fuss on returning home. This de-stressed the whole thing for both of us. I have heard of many dogs getting over this as they get a little older.

I also find with an excitable dog that distraction, likepeforming the tricks works a treat to calm them down, get their attention. She never used to sit still enough for me to get her lead on to go for a walk but now we have a routine - she sits on the stairs, she comes down the stairs to the bootm one and touches my hand on command, she gets the lead slipped over her head and then she gets a treat - always waits quietly for the treat - maybe a sequence like this might help you? Partly esigned by me and partly by her - you work with what you've got Good luck.

[cat1]

Hi,

I'm not sure how you do this with two dogs & unclear status, but do you have toys for outside? My two have a lot of treats toys but the non-dominant one knows she has to just wait & watch for any left overs. Doesn't sound fair to us but it is only "entertainment" food in the treats dispensers and the smaller dog interacts following around & watching. This might cause fighting so get more advice from people that know more than me, but alternative sources of entertainment while you ar egone may limit the digging.

[SkyesongTollrz]

<quote>she realises to eat it is when we are giving them food from our plate and Jess see's millie keeps getting more food cause she ate the 1st one, then jess will eat hers because she knows another bit is on the way <quote>

Stop... NOW! Dogs eat from dog bowls on the floor. Humans eat from plates. If you must give them leftovers, put it into a dog bowl and place it where they normally eat.

I would suggest that you join your local obedience club and attend classes with your dogs. They can give you good advice face to face on how to deal with these problems.

[SkyesongTollrz]

<quote>I agree with what you are saying SkyesongTollrz, although i do beleive they know what they have done, well i know millie defiantely does.<quote>

No they do not. Dogs do not understand human language (although they recognise commands) nor do they have the same sort of reasoning that humans have. You can't tell a dog that you are angry with them for something they did hours ago. They will flat out not understand. Yes millie may cower and look repentent, but that's only because she's getting in trouble and she knows your tone of voice. She doesn't know what it is for.

A trainer once told me that if your dog chews something you should take a rolled up newspaper and hit yourself over the head saying "bad owner, bad owner" because it was your fault that you left if where they they chew it.

[Miranda]

Hi hape2cu,

You do not appear to know much about dog behaviour and are relating to your dogs in human terms. It is totally useless to reprimand a dog after the act, it will have no idea why it is being punished. I would suggest that the actions of both you and your partner are largely contributing to your dog's unwanted behaviour as your dog appears to me to be more than a little frightened of you. You say that the dog knows when it has done wrong, this is totally incorrect, the dog can detect from your body language that you are angry, but it doesn't know why. You appear to be either punishing (and I CANNOT condone physical punishment) the dog or spoiling it rotten, it is no wonder that the dog is confused and afraid, it never knows what's going to happen next. Please enrol in an obedience club asap and have a good talk to someone who knows dogs and dog behaviour, the way you are treating the dog at the moment is only exacerbating the problem.

[Dogsfevr]

Agree you can love them all you want but you are treating them like humans,you say you treat them they way youd want to be treated,is smacking something you like??

[Dogsfevr]

"we love them & want to treat them like us"is smacking something you & your hubby do to each other??,when a person is going to be smacked they either scream or cringe in the hope of protecting themselves,the dog is growling to protect itself from the smack,a problem that is owner created & the dog is now confused.

It sounds to me that the young dog hasnt meet the standard of your first dog which is annoying you both & you are comparing a pup to an adult & trying to be forceful in discipline which hasnt got you any results except create some problems.

Loving a dog is fine we all do it ,spoiling it is great but taking away the dogs identity confuses them .You need to go to training,treat them like dogs & stick to a consistant routine that doesnt involve smacking & do this in a big hurry

[haven]

I agree with most of the info and suggestions posted.

Don't treat your dogs like humans, they're dogs. You wouldn't treat a human like a dog would you? Dogs expect and respect leadership. Obedience classes are a superb place to start. I agree on the submissive urination, but the peeing when excited and greeting is not uncommon in pups simply because they can't hold on. Discourage jumping up as it seems to happen more when they do. Don't punish ANY form of urination. It's counter productive because they don't understand. If you catch them in the act and punish they think actually toileting is wrong, so they try to hold on (and eventually pee) or find a hidden spot to go (like in your closet). Can also cause dogs to eat their own faeces (coprafascia, I think that's how it is spelled).

When your dog rolls over and urinates she is being as lowly and as unthreatening as she knows how. If you ignore her offer of submission and act aggressively by punishing this it creates serious problems. Ignore it completely and clean it up when your dog is out of the room with an enzyme based cleaner to break down the scent (masking the odour from your nose won't mask it form your dogs).

I doubt that her growling is dominance based, I'd think it more likely to be learned. When it happens what do you do? If you react by desisting, you are reinforcing that behaviour and making it more likely to occur.

Cockers, although lovely dogs, are well known for possesive aggression and resource guarding. My advice would be not to give any high value items when unsupervised, or preferably not at all.

Digging is a huge issue and I need more info on when and where it occurs to advise you on that one.

Sounds to me like you may be seeing a change in hierarchy between your two dogs as your younger girl comes into maturity. It's a hotly debated issue but I recommend that you reinforce whichever dog is dominant, not whichever dog you wish to be dominant over the other. Acknowledge the higher dogs status by feeding them first, patting them first etc.

And no your dog has no idea that they have done something wrong. They are either reading your body language or have made an association with getting into trouble when you get home.

[haven]

[

So perhaps a consult with a local behaviouralist (not BarkBusters though)

I totally agree

[Toohey]

Cockers, although lovely dogs, are well known for possesive aggression and resource guarding.

I don't agree with this.

Any dog can be capable of these behaviours if not managed properly from puppyhood.

What do you base this information on?

[haven]

Of course any dog can show these behaviours! But look up 'rage syndrome' on the net or in a book and I could almost guarantee you there would be a picture of a cocker spaniel. Although not as prevalent today, cockers are still prone to these behaviours. I base it on education from countless books, vets, breeders, owners and my own personal experience. Don't get me wrong, I love them, share my home with one in fact.

[Toohey]

There is a massive difference between true rage syndrome which is very rare, and possessive aggression behaviours which have been brought about by poor management.

Please do not bring the term "cocker rage' into this discussion as it is obviously not the issue here.

[haven]

Re read my post. I said 'rage syndrome' in response to your post. I used the terms 'possesive aggression' and 'resource guarding' in my post about the cocker in question because, like I said rage syndrome is not prevalent today and I don't believe it is the case in this situation either. But the term 'rage syndrome' was origionally coined to describe cockers and they are still known for posessive aggression and resource guarding behaviours today.

[Toohey]

I used the terms 'possesive aggression' and 'resource guarding' in my post about the cocker in question

No, you used the term possession aggression and resource guarding to describe cockers in general, NOT the cocker in this post.

But the term 'rage syndrome' was origionally coined to describe cockers and they are still known for posessive aggression and resource guarding behaviours today.

Actually, although cockers and springers are the ones mostly spoken of for it, it has also been reported in the following breeds: American Cocker Spaniels, Bernese Mountain Dogs, Chesapeake Bay Retrievers, Dobermanns, English Bull Terriers, English Springer Spaniels, German Shepherds, Golden Retrievers, Pyrenean Mountain Dogs and St. Bernards

they are still known for posessive aggression and resource guarding behaviours today.

Have you actually seen this in any cockers, or are you just going on hearsay and old wives tales? How many cockers have you personally known who exhibit resource guarding and possessive aggression?

Are you saying this a breed trait and not a management issue?

Edited May 17, 2005 by Toohey

[Jed]

I don't think cocker rage is appropriate for this discussion and IMHO, cockers are not more prone to possessive aggression than anything else. This dog certainly doesn't suffer from cocker rage.

I think Jess is submissive - which is the reason for the peeing - and she may also grow out of it in time - a lot of pups do. If a sensitive dog is chastised for doing this, it can make it worse.

The growling may be part of submission and being the underdog - or it may be possessiveness ... hard to tell. I presume she doesn't offer to snap at you, or bite??

Be aware too, that some cockers are "grumblers" -

Don't chastise here for peeing (hard when your couch is being ruined, I know). Maybe solve the peeing in the house - which I think may be part of wanting to establish her place in the house - by watching her like a hawk whilst inside and perhaps confining her at night, in a crate.

Digging in the garden and eating plants is about par for the course at that age - she will grow out of it - squeaky fluffy toys, balls and ropes with knots may help.

Don't go crook on them hours after the event - they have forgotten what they did.

Cockers ARE sensitive (hard to believe sometimes) and gentleness works every time.

It's hard for anyone to give good advice on the net, so, if the breeder is a reputable one, ask him/her for advice, get a recommendation from your vet, or obedience club for a behaviourist, or buy Val Bonney' book, "Whos The Boss".

Good luck, let us know.

[haven]

Again, re-read my post and don't use quotes to cut sentences and twist what I say. I never said only cockers are known for it only that they are known for it. No I don't think it's only a breed trait I think it can be a result of genetics and/or management. Yes I have seen it personally in cockers, more than just my own and yes I have seen it in other breeds. I never used the term 'cocker rage' and no, I don't think it is the case here.

Edited May 17, 2005 by haven

[Basil]

Toohey didn't actually twist your words because cocker rage and rage syndrome are the same thing. It is also called cocker rage because cockers are mostly known for it although other breeds can have it too.

I hope that hape2cu doesnt get worried with all this talk of rage syndrome becuase it is indeed very rare. Her dog can definitely be helped with some trainig as described by many posters here. Jess does not have rage syndrome or cocker rage.

hape2cu I will post a site on rage syndrome so that you know what it is and can rest assured your dog does not have it. It is not one or two behaviours as you describe with your dog, but a very obvious syndrome.

http://www.cockerspanielrage.org.uk/whatisrage.htm

[haven]

I never said her dog suffered rage syndrome. I specifically said that wasn't the issue. I offered her IMO some very good advice on how to deal with the issues she is having. If anyone disagrees or are confused about what I said im not going to cry about it but if anyone still wants to argue about my grammar or whatever, I suggest you pm me or start a new thread instead of hijacking this one. There is a saying "the only thing two dog trainers will agree on is what the third one is doing wrong" rather apt.

[Jed]

Thanks, Basil, don't want the poster to even think Jess might have cocker rage!!