Desperately Need Help - Cocker Spaniel

[hape2cu]

Hi Everyone, this is my first times on these boards and im praying someone here may have a suggestion or two.

We have 2 cocker spaniels, Millie is 2 and a half, Jess is only 9 months. Jess is the one with the problems. Millie is fantastic. We have 2 seperate problems with Jess, peeing and growling/ dominance.

We have a doggy door and Jess uses it during the day, but at night time she never either bothers to go outside or doesnt make it. But i dont think its not the making it one to be honest.

Also when we come home we have to go outside to greet them as Jess pees everywhere, but then when you say her name as though you are dissapointed she rolls on her back and continues to pee all over herself. Also if you praise her for not peeing she then pees. All she does is pees. Pees when praised and told off. We have tried everything. Taking her out before bed, not fussing her when we get home, telling her off, not telling her off. We never had these troubles with millie and ive tried everything i've read. As telling millie off worked my husband has continued to tell Jess off and give her a smack. I understand his reasoning as ignoring it isnt working either. But now im worried she's all nervous when happy and sad. We need help before it goes on forever. Its not good for her our us. We want to get her desexed but have heard this can make it worse if not permanant. If she's been naughty and she's sitting on the couch we cant even approach her as she knows she's done wrong and then pee's on the couch.

Oddly enough the second problem almost is an exact opposite, She may be nervy but she is also quiet dominant. If you go to move her and she doesnt want to she growls at you. I dont like the fact that i cant tell if she's serious or just having a little winge. Also she pushes the boundrys with millie. And always gets jealous if you pat millie. She has to be in your face all the time. She does entertain herself really well by playing with tennis balls. so she's never bored. Also if we give both her and millie a treat or bone, Jess will just guard her's and not eat it, and then shows it off to millie, when millies finished hers.

Unfortunely they have to be outside when we arnt home now cause Jess kept eating the walls, and we just fixed them so we dont want a repeat of the damage. Now they both are eating the plants and digging. Telling them off for that isnt working either. They both know they've done wrong though, millie puts her head down and Jess will pee before you even open your mouth.

We are desperate for help, I dont want to punish Jess anymore as its not working, and i dont want her hating us either. (not that she does now) How can she be so bossy yet so sensitive.

Please help

[MolassesLass]

First problem is that Jess is suffering from excitement/submission urination. Here are some links that talk about the problem and how to stop it:

Balgowrie Vets

Dumb Friends League

Click and Treat

Wonder Puppy

Please note, that the more you reprimand the urination, the worse you are making it, please tell your husband this ASAP.

Not sure about the second problem, hopefully someone more knowledgable will be along soon.

[SkyesongTollrz]

If she's been naughty and she's sitting on the couch we cant even approach her as she knows she's done wrong and then pee's on the couch.

Now they both are eating the plants and digging. Telling them off for that isnt working either. They both know they've done wrong though, millie puts her head down and Jess will pee before you even open your mouth.

ML gave you some good information on submissive urination. But something I did pick up on in your post is some comments about when you get upset at her. You say that they get in trouble for digging and eating plants while you are out, or that if she's done something wrong and then is on the couch then she gets upset when you approach her. There is absolutely no point in punishing a dog for some perceived wrong hours after they have done it. They have no idea that they are in trouble for the digging when they did that in the morning and you just walked in the door at 5:00pm. All they know is that they are getting in trouble for you coming home and them greeting you. The only time you can correct a dog is as they are doing what you don't want them to be doing. It's no good telling them off hours later, they won't know what they have done wrong.

[mita]

ML is spot on in describing the problem as Submissive Urination. That's found in underconfident, timid female dogs. Punishment & smacking are making it worse as she has more & more to be fearful of. Please tell your husband that point & ask him to stop smacking her.

It might be good for you both to have Submissive Urination explained to you face to face by the vet. It would give you a chance to ask questions & keep reporting back on how strategies to help the little dog are going.

So go talk to the vet...contact her original breeder & talk to him/ her, too. You're right, the present situation is not good for the little dog.

[Toohey]

Cockers are incredibly willing-to-please dogs, and can be very sensitive. You may be making the problems worse by punishing them. Best to ignore bad behaviour.

I am sure the pup will settle as she matures.

Just with my cockers, although they are adults, I find I get great results by giving them one on one attention, sitting down and looking into their eyes and stroke them gently, tell them what a good boy/girl they are. I talk to them a lot and make sure if I use a certain word I follow straight through with the matching action. As a result, my dogs have a huge vocabulary and it is easy to communicate with them.

A good one for your Jess may be "settle" if she is over excited. Stand there with your arms crossed and keep saying it to her quietly until she calms down and sits, then tell her how good she is and give her a treat. She will soon learn that when she calms and sits she is rewarded. Cockers are terribly intelligent, learn quickly and respond badly to punishment with fear and nervousness.

Jess is a pup don't forget, and pups chew and dig. Mine grew out of that at around 12 months.

Do you do any obedience training with her? Might help also.

[poodlefan]

Welcome to DOL!

I totally agree on the submissive urination - especially that reacting adversely will make it worse.

Have you taken either of these dogs to obedience training? Dominance like Jess is displaying can be helped a lot by teaching your dog (nicely) that YOU are the leader. Read the recent thread on a growling puppy for an explanation.

Digging holes and eating plants sound like the behaviours of bored and underexercised dogs - how much exercise are they getting? Do they have toys to occupy them while you are away? A kong or bone to chew on will help.

[hape2cu]

Thank you molasseslass for those great links, i have printed them out and i will make my husband read them. I wish he could just beleive it. But i will be doing my best to get him to understand. It all makes sense to me.

I agree with what you are saying SkyesongTollrz, although i do beleive they know what they have done, well i know millie defiantely does.

I just want to get it sorted so she can be a happy little girl. She know's we love her and millie to death, we take them everywhere with us.

Its sad to see her like this

[poodlefan]

Put it in 'child' terms for your hubby.

If a child peed itself because it was fearful of you, how would smacking it help cure the problem? The more he growls and smacks her the worse it will get.

Another tip, do not go overboard with greetings or bend over her when you get home - both tend to trigger peeing.

Quiet, calm, kind... that's the mantra that will help this issue.

[trifecta]

Hape2cu, this thread might be better suited in the Training/Behaviour forum. Meanwhile this article may give you food for thought How dogs think

As for the growling, does Jessie have her own space/ bed/ crate? Is she allowed to sit on the sofa? Maybe this puts her at the same level as you in her eyes? The key is to learn to think as she does.

[MolassesLass]

Interesting aside: Submission/Excitement urination seems to be quite hereditary. My Molly did it up until about 11 months of age (although it was only REALLY exciting things that would trigger it after about 6 months old) and from her litter most of the puppies did it too. I sent home some of those mentioned articles to all owners when the pups went and all pups have now got the problem under control and most have ceased.

hape2cu -

I agree with what you are saying SkyesongTollrz, although i do beleive they know what they have done, well i know millie defiantely does.

No, really, she doesn't. Dogs are excellent at reading body language and they can tell when you are mad, before you even begin to yell. She also may have learnt that you don't like pot plants knocked over, but she certainly doesn't associate the ACTION of her chewing them with the RESPONSE of you being mad.

I tend to agree with the suggestions that it sounds like your dogs are bored and under stimulated (probably both mentally and physically). More exercise, regular training and play should help the situation. And you may be causing problems in your pack structure in your house, either by allowing your dogs on your level or by not treating the dogs at the level each is.

[hape2cu]

hi trifecta,

The girls do have their own bed, but they sleep on our bed, and we let them on the couch. I realise people will say this is the wrong thing to do, but we love them and want to treat them like us. We love cuddling them and getting kisses. I know we spoil our girls more than anyone we know, but thats how we want it to be. Millie is spoilt but is still the most beautiful dog, and everyone we know always comments on how great they are. Jess is the best cuddler ever. Im smiling even thinking about them.

:-)

[trifecta]

ML is it really hereditary? Could it be a learned behaviour from Mum?

[MolassesLass]

ML is it really hereditary? Could it be a learned behaviour from Mum?

I'd say so. Because temperament is hereditary and so with the potential for being slighty timid pups (or pups that are very desperate to please) they were more likely to do the peeing thing. They couldn't have learnt it as mum is 2.5 years old and stopped it at 11 months like I said above.

[poodlefan]

Many people let their dogs sleep on the bed and get on the couch. That only becomes an issue if the dog displays exactly the kind of behaviour you are talking about. Teach your dogs you are the boss and they can sleep whereever you like.

"Spoiling" a dog is fine. However dogs are pack animals and they NEED a leader. If you don't take on the role one of them will - any guesses as to who in your family might be stepping up? Yup, I'd say Jess is. You can still pamper a dog but set boundaries at the same time. Your dogs will actually be happier for it.

Treat a dog like a person and you are begging for behavioural issues to develop.

I really think that some positively based obedience training would help out here.

[Maverick]

They sound like lovely dogs...

I can only help with the growling.. I have a few questions.. Do you feed the dogs first or do you eat first ? Do you feed them while you are eating ? When you open the door, who goes out first ? Does Millie get the hugs first ?

The whole growling thing sounds like either a fear based or a dominance based. With the peeing everywhere it sounds like more fear based.

Cockers are the best

[hape2cu]

Hi Maverick,

yes cockers are the best

We try not to favour one, because im well aware that it wouldnt be fair on Jess to do that. I also make sure i spend one on one time with them both. So i cant say we say hello to one of the first everytime.

Also with their dinners we dont tend to feed them at the same time as us, but we arent strict on weather its before ours or after our dinner. Does this make a difference?

Although we spoil them we also let them know who's boss. We knew from day one Jess would push the authority boundries. As my partner says she's a little devil. But other times she is the cutest puppy ever.

We have started basic training with them, and they love to do "tricks" more than anything.

Did anyone have any suggestions on the growling over treats / bones. And holding onto it until millie hasnt got one anymore?

:-)

Edited May 17, 2005 by hape2cu

[poodlefan]

On the treats/bones issue? Put two out, and take anything away after Millie has finished eating. Jess will soon learn not to wait.

[MolassesLass]

We try not to favour one, because im well aware that it wouldnt be fair on Jess to do that. I also make sure i spend one on one time with them both. So i cant say we say hello to one of the first everytime.

While it may sound like the human 'fair' thing to do, what you are doing is in part causing you problems. Dogs are pack animals, each animal has a status in the pack and if they are not treated as per their status you will be causing problems between the pack members.

Have a read of these two articles on Multiple Dog Households:

Article 1

Article 2

[Maverick]

Exactly what ML said....

With growling over bones.... my two do it all time to each other. Mai hoards the bones and pinches them when no one else is looking. Maverick growls at anyone who comes near him (dogs that is).

But neither growl at me if I take the bone off them. When I get home I pat puppies in order of pack status. They get fed in the same order. Always get fed after us....

Plus, our guys are allowed on the couch and the bed

[hape2cu]

Thank you everyone for replying and trying to help me out. I guess first thing is first no more telling Jess off. I dont want her to be a nervous wreak.

I do actually take away Jess's treat when millie has finished, because of the trouble Jess causes by hoarding it. The only time that she realises to eat it is when we are giving them food from our plate and Jess see's millie keeps getting more food cause she ate the 1st one, then jess will eat hers because she knows another bit is on the way.

molasseslass - Im not sure i know what you mean, are you saying we should fuss Millie more than jess, i thought favouring one would be bad, especially if jess thinks she's the top dog and we give more attention to millie?

Thanks again everyone