What is the Purpose of the Limited Register?

[YOLO]

5 hours ago, Deeds said:

Why would breeders produce a litter from 2 champion show dogs and sell the entire litter on LR with the exception of the 2 dogs staying with the breeder & owner of the sire.

This is one of my questions.
By all accounts the breeders in question are highly regarded, ethical, breeders looking to produce the most well-rounded dogs they can in accordance with standards.  They are usually heavily involved in showing and/or trialling, and in many cases have gone to great lengths to introduce better bloodlines.
And yet despite this they seem to be saying that they have no confidence in their pups??

And again, the lack of logic astounds me.

If I am not an ANKC Registered Breeder, then your placing the dog on the LR doesn't effect me anyway. 
And sure, the majority of owners may not be interested in showing their dog, but that again just means its irrelevant.  If anything shouldn't you be encouraging new participants.

To be honest, my interest in dog-showing comes and goes.  I'm never going to be a lifelong devotee, but with a suitable dog it is something I would like to at least look into. 

[asal]

2 hours ago, YOLO said:

This is one of my questions.
By all accounts the breeders in question are highly regarded, ethical, breeders looking to produce the most well-rounded dogs they can in accordance with standards.  They are usually heavily involved in showing and/or trialling, and in many cases have gone to great lengths to introduce better bloodlines.
And yet despite this they seem to be saying that they have no confidence in their pups??

And again, the lack of logic astounds me.

If I am not an ANKC Registered Breeder, then your placing the dog on the LR doesn't effect me anyway. 
And sure, the majority of owners may not be interested in showing their dog, but that again just means its irrelevant.  If anything shouldn't you be encouraging new participants.

To be honest, my interest in dog-showing comes and goes.  I'm never going to be a lifelong devotee, but with a suitable dog it is something I would like to at least look into. 

 

 

Encouraging new members went out the window a few decades ago. main reason so many steer clear of ankc breeders now, 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by asal

[coneye]

Bought two dogs in the past , one a GSD the other a staffie ,, i mention these two because both were prime example of there breed , both i paid a premium for  , both had really  really good pedigrees , both  the breeders kept in contavct  with me and showed an interest in them ,,, both  the breeders  tried to get me to show them ,  both breeders were proud of these dogs ,    BUt showing dogs was not for me   i just could'nt be bothered ,, but i was proud of the fact people used to stop me in the street or on the dog beach and ask , where did you get him he's fantastic ,  and when i gave out the breeders number i know for a fact they got calls has to regards pups ,  too me they were pets ,, but the breeders produced and sold top quality dogs  these dogs were mine and if i chose to show or breed them i  felt i was entitled to do so , after all   the breeders were doing it  ,  who says there  better than anyone else  i was and did pay a premium to buy quality dogs , whats more these breeders were proud of there dogs  and actually wanted me to breed and or show , it looked good on them . But both these breeders would tell you when you bought  that ones a ripper , thats below show quality he's cheaper but no papers ,

 

Now fast forward a few years and its alll LR  ,,,, WHY ,, thats an easy question to answer ,  CONTROL  , yep control of there buisness and lets have it right when you have 2 litters a year from   your dogs at 5 grand a pup its big buisness ,, limited registar cuts out competition , it also ensures  you can throw any two dogs together  and still command high prices for  bad examples of the breed ,, just look at a lot of the hunchback shepards around ,,, i'm totally against LR  ,  Breeder breeds champions for show or breeding , sell on mains , if its not good quality  sell cheaper  without papres  after all can't be shown ,, but LR  sell the  bad examples at the show dog prices ,  win win for the breeder ,  i will say i've had a few disciusions with breeders over the years who bbject to my thinking ,  but like i say to them who made them sherriff  , in my state you have to be a breeder or get the dog desexed ,   and the council have the police to help enforce that , breeders don't need to be judge and jury ,

 

Its all about protecting there income and  cutting out competition

[Deeds]

Coneye What you have said has been my exact experience.  I have always paid for show quality on MR but didn't show.

 

This time  it appears I paid for show quality on LR.  

[Luvapoo]

Interesting thread.

 

I am an ANKC registered breeder.

 

I made contact with a breeder listed on this site recently seeking a female on mains.

She has pups for sale.

She said "oh goodness no, I am very protective of my bloodlines did you know that the grandmother of one of the pups in question was BIS"

Yes, the grandmother.

 

She finally said that she would sell me a female on mains but she would have to be half owner to stop me from selling any of the pups I bred on mains.

 

THIS is the mentality of some. 

 

Needless to say I was not interested in that arrangement.

 

 

 

[Rebanne]

20 hours ago, Deeds said:

So do pups on LR sell for the same price as pups on MR? 

depends on the breeder. Costs the same to rear them.

[Tassie]

FWIW, I am primarily a performance person so I have no reservations about getting a dog on LR, because I am only going to get a pup froma breeder whose practices in relation to breeding, including extensive testing, I approve of, and who knows me or of me enough to know what kind of life my dogs have.   In the case of both my current dogs, the breeders were considering whether to keep the dog I eventually got, or a sibling.  So my dogs were 'show quality" . As it happens, both dogs ended up on Main Register .. one was the breeder's decision .. knowing I had a local mentor in the breed who would likely show the dog for me, and the other at my request, once people whose opinion I respect here said the dog was worth showing.  The breeder was happy to do the upgrade.    Both dogs are now neutered ... one is  a Tri Ch Neuter Ch ... and the other has a show Ch and is working towrds performance titles.

 

Bottom line in my opinion is taking the time to get to know breeders and being honest and open in your dealings.    Common sensew really, though sadly, not always all that common.

[WoofnHoof]

I find it ridiculous personally. If someone wants to have a crack at showing why shouldn't they? If the dog isn't fabulous it won't blow anyone away but they might have a nice day out.

 

If the animals are such poor quality that breeders are embarrassed by them then I would question the quality of their breeding in general. Omitting the few with glaring faults there really shouldn't be anything stopping most people going to the odd dog show, they aren't taking it to crufts for crying out loud. What people consider show quality can vary greatly anyway, realistically if the dog meets the standard it should be of sufficient quality to represent its breed and whether it wins is up to the judge. I remember years ago a similar discussion here with a breeder stating "I don't want to see my shit in the ring".

 

I've only known a few breeders in the horse world who won't register certain progeny and they are the *least* ethical for several reasons. Everyone else is quite happy to see their animals out and about. They are ambassadors for their breed and for the stud even if they aren't perfect according to a show judge. Anyone who shows knows you take take the same animal to one judge and have it win everything and another judge won't even give it a look so it's not the end of the world if it doesn't win.

 

Despite this showing can be great for teaching animals manners and patience, educating owners and spectators about breeds and conformation, socialising dog and human (as long as your fellow showies aren't wankers!) and just generally getting out and about. 

 

The gatekeepers need to chill out IMO. Where is the harm in taking pride in the animals you have produced whether they are some arbitrary definition of "show quality" or not? As the OP says, anyone who is going to breed outside of the regs will ignore LR and so it's really just ANKC vs ANKC breeders shooting themselves in the foot.  

 

 

[Pjrt]

@WoofnHoof  during my 2 forays into the show ring during the mid 80’s and again in the 2000’s, I encountered multiple breeders who’d get really pretty shitty if a dog they’d bred won against them!! Seriously! They’d alienate and cold shoulder people they’d sold their own stock to who’d subsequently started winning against them. Why the hell wouldn’t you be proud as punch that a dog you’d sold came out and won, often with an inexperienced handler….. defied belief!  

[JRG]

Unfortunately (or fortunately) I am old enough to have been a breeder in the “olden days”.

my pups still leave here on the main register because I am proud of them.  They are and always have been , working dogs. They still look the same as they always have looked (no long coats and floppy ears etc).  They have done my kennel proud as sniffing dogs all over the world.  Do you think Dogs Vic  or Dogs NSW cares?  They do not even acknowledge us when our animals appear in the media etc. So why am I still a member? Because I believe in the Stud Book/Register which should be a record for all dog owners to see the history of their breed and the place of their dog in that history.

[YOLO]

I didn't start this thread to bash breeders.
But the way in which some dictate up front that all their puppies go on the LR, just seems illogical to me.

Unless I'm missing something, limited register has only two effects:

1. It prevents the owner from showing the dog
2. It prevents another ANKC registered breeder from registering any offspring.

And that's it, so what am I missing?

 

The prospect of getting involved in dogs shows is daunting enough, why do they want ban new owners??
 

In regards to breeding, as I said it only effects another registered breeder (or somebody that wants to become one)

1. An unregistered breeder (well-meaning amateur, backyard bodgy, or puppy farmer) will breed the dog regardless.
2. As a breeder said above, they would know any existing ANKC Breeder and would have a discussion prior to selecting a puppy, so the blanket LR policy is largely irrelevant. Afterall, is the pinching of puppies between registered breeders really a huge problem?
3. Which leaves the issue of new or prospective Registered Breeders.
   Surely this is an opportunity to engage with such people?
   Point out the responsibilities and challenges of becoming a registered breeder, and try to educate them?
   What's the worst that can happen?
   The Upfront Mandatory "LR ONLY" stance not only fails to engage, but pushes any wannabe breeder onto the backyard-breeder path.

Edited February 23, 2022 by YOLO

[WoofnHoof]

5 hours ago, Podgus said:

@WoofnHoof  during my 2 forays into the show ring during the mid 80’s and again in the 2000’s, I encountered multiple breeders who’d get really pretty shitty if a dog they’d bred won against them!! Seriously! They’d alienate and cold shoulder people they’d sold their own stock to who’d subsequently started winning against them. Why the hell wouldn’t you be proud as punch that a dog you’d sold came out and won, often with an inexperienced handler….. defied belief!  

 

That's really sad isn't it? I know some horse breeders prefer to restrict what is being bred from their lines if they have spent a lot of money importing sires etc but it's only in very niche markets IME. In this day and age it's easy enough to import whatever breeding you want so it's only restricting a small subset of small scale breeders.  Most are ecstatic to see progeny doing well, representing the breed and the lines. We aren't playing for sheep stations out there. 

 

[JRG]

On 15/02/2022 at 6:08 PM, YOLO said:

I didn't start this thread to bash breeders.
But the way in which some dictate up front that all their puppies go on the LR, just seems illogical to me.

Unless I'm missing something, limited register has only two effects:

1. It prevents the owner from showing the dog
2. It prevents another ANKC registered breeder from registering any offspring.

And that's it, so what am I missing?

 

The prospect of getting involved in dogs shows is daunting enough, why do they want ban new owners??
 

In regards to breeding, as I said it only effects another registered breeder (or somebody that wants to become one)

1. An unregistered breeder (well-meaning amateur, backyard bodgy, or puppy farmer) will breed the dog regardless.
2. As a breeder said above, they would know any existing ANKC Breeder and would have a discussion prior to selecting a puppy, so the blanket LR policy is largely irrelevant. Afterall, is the pinching of puppies between registered breeders really a huge problem?
3. Which leaves the issue of new or prospective Registered Breeders.
   Surely this is an opportunity to engage with such people?
   Point out the responsibilities and challenges of becoming a registered breeder, and try to educate them?
   What's the worst that can happen?
   The Upfront Mandatory "LR ONLY" stance not only fails to engage, but pushes any wannabe breeder onto the backyard-breeder path.

I agree.  Once the puppy is paid for and out of the gate  the breeder has lost all effective control no matter which register it is listed on.

People who think otherwise are fooling themselves

[YOLO]

6 hours ago, JRG said:

I agree.  Once the puppy is paid for and out of the gate  the breeder has lost all effective control no matter which register it is listed on.

People who think otherwise are fooling themselves

The irony is that to have any control, via the Register, or a non-breeding contract, or guardianship, the other would-be breeder must themselves be regulated by the ANKC.  
But if they keep pushing people away, then that won't happen.

[Luvapoo]

So another perspective: 

 

For me, putting a pup on mains means that I believe it is suitable for both breeding and showing.

 

I sell on mains whenever I think the pup would be suitable for BOTH. I am not a show person and rely heavily on breeder friends and mentors, and the breed standard as shown on this site.

 

For example, poodles have to have a solid coloured coat and occasionally a spot of white may come through on the coat for whatever reason. Or the tail is not straight, or the points are not perfect. We learn as we go.

 

Maybe to you colour sounds trivial, but it does matter, and although my dogs are fully health checked every year and DNA cleared if they don't meet the breed standard, I am not selling that pup on mains. I am however fully confident I am selling healthy pets.

 

I would absolutely love to sell everything on mains and be very proud to see my prefix on other people's pedigrees. But I am only doing it if I believe pup is suitable. And even then no one has a crystal ball when you let a pup leave you at 8 - 10 weeks.

 

Of course I can only speak for my breed but I am sure every other breeder has a breed standard they need to adhere to and may hold puppies back on limited for that reason.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Luvapoo
Edit

[sandgrubber]

4 hours ago, Luvapoo said:

So another perspective: 

 

For me, putting a pup on mains means that I believe it is suitable for both breeding and showing.

 

I sell on mains whenever I think the pup would be suitable for BOTH. I am not a show person and rely heavily on breeder friends and mentors, and the breed standard as shown on this site.

 

I see a couple problems here

 

1. You can't be sure of suitability for either at 8 weeks.  Eg, adult size may end up outside confirmation standards or hip and elbow scores may be too high for breeding.

 

2. It is possible to be unsuitable for showing but still within breed standards and visa versa.   Brachy dogs with too much nose or GSDs with squarish hindquarters have poorprospects in the ring.  Conversely, a Labrador that doesn't like water or a BC with no herding instinct isn't acceptable to the spirit of the breed standard, but could do quite well in the show ring.

[JRG]

I see the biggest problem is who writes the standards, and who is interpreting that standard?  People with different interests will put stress on different features/capabilities.

[cannibalgoldfish]

Quote

but i was proud of the fact people used to stop me in the street or on the dog beach and ask , where did you get him he's fantastic ,

Coneye, I got this constantly, all the time. However my boy had several faults and was genuinely sold on Limited Register because of that. (Too tall, girly face in a breed with distinctive sexual characteristics, ect ) I once even had a judge at a local dog show tell me I should show him (I was walking past the showgrounds,) but quite simple, Loki was not up to scratch. I knew the breed, I knew my dog. Thing is, the adverage person doesn't always recognise an actual GOOD example of a breed. 

[sandgrubber]

11 hours ago, JRG said:

I see the biggest problem is who writes the standards, and who is interpreting that standard?  People with different interests will put stress on different features/capabilities.

But in too many cases, judges interpret and have long interpreted the standard in ways that cause health problems and/or result in high maintenance, often at a cost in temperament.  The winners end up on MR and the BISs become preferred studs.  

 

My mother was born in 1923.  She complained that show preferences were ruining breeds she loved...specifically, rough collies and cocker spaniels.

Edited February 26, 2022 by sandgrubber

[JRG]

4 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

But in too many cases, judges interpret and have long interpreted the standard in ways that cause health problems and/or result in high maintenance, often at a cost in temperament.  The winners end up on MR and the BISs become preferred studs.  

 

My mother was born in 1923.  She complained that show preferences were ruining breeds she loved...specifically, rough collies and cocker spaniels.

Precisely!