What is the Purpose of the Limited Register?

[YOLO]

I have been browsing some of the Breeders' ads, doing my research. 
And I'm a bit puzzled by the large number that say "all my Pups on the Limited Register, so no Breeding or Showing"

It makes literally no sense to me, so I'm wondering what I'm missing?

 

Let's say something unforeseen (or even fraudulent) happens, and in a Breeder's worst nightmare, one of their Dogs or Bitches ends up at a "Puppy Mill".  What exactly is the LR going to achieve?

The only possible effect it has is on another ANKC Registered Breeder, who are supposed to Breed responsibly and in accordance with the rules and codes of practice.  A puppy farm, backyard breeder, or even just your average dill who lets their bitch get impregnated, isn't going to be stopped by the LR.

And why the prohibition on Showing?  Sure, most owners won't anyway, but shouldn't they be trying to encourage more people into Showing?

I also wonder at the message it's sending.  If dogs started out on a "non-breeding" register, but could be upgraded by winning shows, or being judged, then I think that would be fair enough?  Or even if they said "Puppies will be placed on appropriate Register after evaluation" or some such?  But saying ALL your pups go on the LR almost suggests that there's an inherent problem?

Edited February 10, 2022 by YOLO

[Dogsfevr]

Common sense not every pup born is show potential not every pup born is breeding potential .

These issues can be noted at 8 weeks whether ear set,tail carriage,mismark colours ,height etc etc and breeding DNA results .

Only an idiot would encourage someone to show a obvious pet and waste good money doing so and it also reflects on the ethics off a breeder to send someone in the ring with such a poor examp,e lacking breed standard qualities .

 

LR doesn’t suggest anything .

A breeder who sells everything on mains is no better if going down that thought process.

 

Some stud agreements are based on conditions.that is the business off those parties .

99% off our pups go on LR as that’s what the owners want .

 

Encouraging someone to show means sending them in the ring with a worthy example not just a dog .

If I wouldn’t show it why should a pet owner .

limited can be upgraded.

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Dogsfevr

[ish]

It means I am selling you a pet, which you can do any activity with - except for show and breed. The vast majority of people want no more than that so having a limited registered puppy is of absolutely no consequence 

 

if you’re an ANkC registered breeder looking for a show/breeding potential puppy, I’d expect you to tell me so from the start and we could have a conversation about a main register puppy

 

Dogs can also easily be upgraded to main down the track. I’ve put 2 initially pet puppies on main after they passed their hip/elbow X-rays and then they hit the show ring. Easy peasy. All that has to be done is to communicate with the breeder 

[sandgrubber]

It can be viewed as a way to restrict competition.

IMO it's a corrupt practice.  Firstly because you can't readily judge show prospects at 8 weeks.  Secondly because it drives people who put more emphasis on health and temperament out of the pedigree system. 

Say I want to breed Bostons with a relatively good nose, or Iggies with bigger bones and less danger of fracture...fat chance of finding a pup.

I've owned many dogs, and in running a boarding kennel, gotten to know thousands.  There are exceptional dogs with good health and charismatic temperament.  Very few of them are on Main Register.

[Pjrt]

It’s certainly helped reduce the already restricted available gene pools within breeds……

 

 

It continues to amaze me the level of control many purebreed breeders desire over the puppies they produce. With mandatory desexing  laws and ever increasing controls on the everyday average pet dog owner, the likelihood is that the vast majority of your pups will go into genuine loving pet homes and never be bred. ANS SO BLOODY WHAT if they did land in a home where they were bred from. What does that take away from you? How does that affect your dogs, your potential? 
By purebreed dogs ending up breeding outside of the ANKC we keep a bit of diversity, which is by its very nature, is necessary to promote and preserve ALL dogs. 
I used to have both feet planted firmly in the purebreed camp, but then I started to grasp the inherent problem with the dogged pursuit of purity and the determination to judge something within such a restricted ideal that is ‘the breed standards’. It’s absolutely nonsensical. The only way forward is mixed breeding and at the very least, outcrossing . 
I love a beautiful example a purebreed as much as the next person, but the truth is, it is not sustainable in its current format. 
Limited register …….look at the actual name of it even…..LIMITED !! 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Podgus

[~Anne~]

28 minutes ago, Podgus said:

It’s certainly helped reduce the already restricted available gene pools within breeds……

 

 

It continues to amaze me the level of control many purebreed breeders desire over the puppies they produce. With mandatory desexing  laws and ever increasing controls on the everyday average pet dog owner, the likelihood is that the vast majority of your pups will go into genuine loving pet homes and never be bred. ANS SO BLOODY WHAT if they did land in a home where they were bred from. What does that take away from you? How does that affect your dogs, your potential? 
By purebreed dogs ending up breeding outside of the ANKC we keep a bit of diversity, which is by its very nature, is necessary to promote and preserve ALL dogs. 
I used to have both feet planted firmly in the purebreed camp, but then I started to grasp the inherent problem with the dogged pursuit of purity and the determination to judge something within such a restricted ideal that is ‘the breed standards’. It’s absolutely nonsensical. The only way forward is mixed breeding and at the very least, outcrossing . 
I love a beautiful example a purebreed as much as the next person, but the truth is, it is not sustainable. 
Limited register …….look at the actual name of it even…..LIMITED !! 

I agree with this for the most part, however, I do see some concerns around showing dogs of poor quality and its reflection on the breeder. Still, that then opens up the whole purpose of showing - which I think needs discussion and redefining. 

 

The world and its people (society) are changing but we still hold fast on to age old ideas and concepts in many things. Don't get me wrong, many of these concepts are sound and should be preserved, but many need to reviewed in the context of the future.

[Pjrt]

The likelihood of a pet owner even with a superb specimen, actually managing to follow through with showing and succeed there, is minuscule, for a variety of reasons. The judges are there to hopefully deny the opportunity for the poor quality pup to succeed in the ring. 
The issue I see so often with the purebred system is the blinkered attitude that the ONLY worthy dogs, full stop, exist ONLY within the purebred system, and that no one else has the ability to breed dogs responsibly, or produce dogs with any worth.

I said here once before, that I challenge that the farmer with the mixed breed smooth coat working ‘border collie’ that works hard for years, produces the next generation of sound hard working dog, saves him the wages of many workers, and also gives him quality companionship, values his dog as much, maybe entirely more, than the breeder/exhibitor of the purebreed border collie with a wall of ribbons and certificates and grand champions in every corner of the family tree. 
Perfection is subjective. 
 

[Deeds]

If a dog was purchased on a Limited Register can the LR be changed back to Main Register on the breeders request ?  In NSW that is.

[~Anne~]

Agree. Although again I see 2 different issues - breeders and pedigrees.

 

A pedigree is in all reality is a document, based on the knowledge and honesty of the information source - a person who is completing a form verifying a litter. It shows nothing more than a name and a lineage. It does not show genetic, physical or temperament characteristics so its value in determining a dog fit for requirements is questionable. 

 

Breeders are another matter. I actually would not condemn breeding of a litter of pups without a pedigree. I agree with your statement about people other than 'purebred' breeders, breeding dogs of value. Somewhere along the way, over the last 20 years or more, we've turned this into a war - the pure and the not pure - the registered and the not registered.  We've called people to arms and to take sides - your either a purist or you're not. We lump all people breeding dogs, which do not have traditional pedigrees, into baskets of profiteering, abuse and greed and the pedigree breeders into saints and automatically 'ethical' (what on earth does this even really mean?!). 

 

Its bizarre. We claim dogs are 'part of our family' but low and behold if they have a fault we demand refunds! Not very family like... but I digress...

 

For me personally, its a risk and desires measure. I like specific styles of dogs with specific characteristics, and this also applies to cats. So I choose to buy dogs and cats that are of a breed that I know is known for those characteristics. By choosing purebred dogs (and cats) of specific breeds, I am not saying that all others dogs have no value though.

[Diva]

20 minutes ago, Deeds said:

If a dog was purchased on a Limited Register can the LR be changed back to Main Register on the breeders request ?  In NSW that is.

Yes. 

[Pjrt]

Yep! Absolutely fine if anyone want to be part of the purebreed standardised breeding establishment, but realise that can be done concurrently with other ways. The ANKC, KC, AKC, FCI etc, don’t have ownership over everything dogs. It seems a surprise to some that others can produce worthy animals. 
Informed or not, for better or worse, the general dog owning public have turned their backs on purebreed pedigree dogs en masse. Bemoaning this is not the way to swing things back to said pedigree dogs. 
I actually think it’s just inevitable ‘evolution’ to the contemporary , which, in time, will & should, give way to the contemporary. 

[moosmum]

There is also this-

 

Limited register serves to restrict what gets shown and bred, to what conforms most exactly to the Breed standards as written and expressed today, in the show ring.

 

Reinforcing the existing statehood of Pedigree Dogs, not the need to redefine or discuss.

 

 

 

 

[Diva]

1 hour ago, Podgus said:

Yep! Absolutely fine if anyone want to be part of the purebreed standardised breeding establishment

I absolutely do want to be part of that. No one outside of that network produces the dogs I love to live with. 
Pedigrees aren’t just bits of paper to me- I look at a pedigree and see all those dogs I’ve known and followed for decades, the documented breed history going back hundreds of years, the fascinating cultural heritage, and the hard work of beautiful breeders who have been so generous with their knowledge and lines. Pedigrees do indeed help me predict temperament and health, because those entries are more than just names to me. I also employ the range of available contemporary tools to assess genetic potential. But I love to peruse a pedigree. 

I don’t like the limited register, I think it is bad for breeds.  I don’t use it. 

[Deeds]

Why would breeders produce a litter from 2 champion show dogs and sell the entire litter on LR with the exception of the 2 dogs staying with the breeder & owner of the sire.

 

The entire litter was apparently "show quality" yet the litter was sold with an agreement for purchasers to accept LR.  Does LR protect the breeder legally. 

[asal]

8 hours ago, ~Anne~ said:

Agree. Although again I see 2 different issues - breeders and pedigrees.

 

A pedigree is in all reality is a document, based on the knowledge and honesty of the information source - a person who is completing a form verifying a litter. It shows nothing more than a name and a lineage. It does not show genetic, physical or temperament characteristics so its value in determining a dog fit for requirements is questionable. 

 

Breeders are another matter. I actually would not condemn breeding of a litter of pups without a pedigree. I agree with your statement about people other than 'purebred' breeders, breeding dogs of value. Somewhere along the way, over the last 20 years or more, we've turned this into a war - the pure and the not pure - the registered and the not registered.  We've called people to arms and to take sides - your either a purist or you're not. We lump all people breeding dogs, which do not have traditional pedigrees, into baskets of profiteering, abuse and greed and the pedigree breeders into saints and automatically 'ethical' (what on earth does this even really mean?!). 

 

Its bizarre. We claim dogs are 'part of our family' but low and behold if they have a fault we demand refunds! Not very family like... but I digress...

 

For me personally, its a risk and desires measure. I like specific styles of dogs with specific characteristics, and this also applies to cats. So I choose to buy dogs and cats that are of a breed that I know is known for those characteristics. By choosing purebred dogs (and cats) of specific breeds, I am not saying that all others dogs have no value though.

 

 

I just totall crack up when they started bleating, "a responsible , ethical, breeder will life guarantee their puppies".

 

like yea,   so I can life guarantee my child's health?   FOR LIFE?

 

IF WE CANT EVEN DO THAT FOR OUR CHILD, how on earth can you be so stupid to think you can for a dog, cat, u name it anything that wasnt manufactured like whitgoodes which are never guaranteed for more than 3 year, 1year being the norm.

 

As my vet said, breeding is a lottery of unseen unknown genes, the dna profiles only pick up a miniscule percentage of the deletrious genes to be found.   Sanity, common sense?   out the window these days.   LIFE IS A LOTTERY.

 

yet we are expected to know more about our pets genetic makup than our selves or our children???

 

no wonder so few want their necks on the chopping block by breeding a litter

 

 

As for the limit register.   back in the olden days, main registered puppies comprised any puppies the breeder was proud to put their prefix too.  Even when it wasn't a flyer that would go Australian champion,  all the puppies that were a credit to the kennel and could produce good sound puppies went on main register;   Believe it or not breeding quality puppies outnumber show quality puppies by 10 to 1, even 30 to 1. but those breeding quality puppies often produced better consistency in their litters than the show winning champions.

I saw this often.   champion to champion mating's with some 25% of puppies that would be pet quality only and never registered, but sold as pets with a written pedigree instead.  But those puppies were dead money to the register.

 

fast forward to the ankc bowing to the AR nutters and all bitches were restricted to how many litters they are allowed, how often a year they can have a litter and all of a sudden income has halved for the ANKC.  Solution.  ALL live puppies MUST be registered. the once pet puppies must be Limit registered.   income restored.

 

Except all of a sudden its the Ethical, Responsible who will never sell a puppy on main.   "you cant let your bloodline out of your control"  "you never breed except to replace the parents" "you never breed to supply pets to joe public! or your a puppy farmer to be hounded ouf the the ankc"    

 

so dead end kennels is the epitime of Ethical and responsible?

 

I have other names for them but they are not repeatable in public.  something about ego, over control etc   ...................................................................

 

 

 

 

well the mess is escalated to the point many, including vets I know who see the ankc ending up irrelevant to purebred dogs and they began saying that almost ten years ago now.

 

I noticed when RNSWCC decided to become more relevant to the dog owning public and registering x breds and unregistered purebreds for companion dog events changed the name to DOGS NSW.   I believe they have spotted the writing on the wall and its now to be changed to DOGS AUSTRALIA. to appeal to more pet people as the purebreds born continue to fall towards endangered levels now.

 

 

I do think they will intervene in the end and open breed development registers to bring the numbers back up again as they did for the Australian Stumpy Tailed Cattledog.  Fortunately there are millions of invisible purebreds being born independently of the ankc members for classification when needed. I well remember how many magnificant stumpies turned up for classification when the development register was opened and dogs asked to be brought for classification.

 

not bad for a breed that had for many many decades only one registered breeder who would not sell on main register

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by asal

[Pjrt]

@asal I actually nearly included in my above posts how back in the 80’s working for one of the top winning kennels of the day, with a geneticist no less, at the helm, mostly the plainest of bitches were retained for breeding. Good sound typey balanced examples of their breed, no major exaggeration or particular leaning. Most of their breeding bitches were either lightly or never shown, but produced consistently for both the show ring and the companion home. These days it seems the worth of a breeding dog is assessed largely on how many grand champions are behind it. People seem to have forgotten the gentle art of actually looking over the dog in front of them and having the courage to know what to do with it, rather relying on the opinions of judges and bowing the pressure of popular opinions & peers.  

Edited February 11, 2022 by Podgus

[Deeds]

So do pups on LR sell for the same price as pups on MR? 

[asal]

4 hours ago, Deeds said:

Why would breeders produce a litter from 2 champion show dogs and sell the entire litter on LR with the exception of the 2 dogs staying with the breeder & owner of the sire.

 

The entire litter was apparently "show quality" yet the litter was sold with an agreement for purchasers to accept LR.  Does LR protect the breeder legally. 

 

it is very effecting in limiting any competition.  

 

but the breeder speak is they are ethical, only register what you keep for yourself has been the gold standard for decades now

[asal]

39 minutes ago, Deeds said:

So do pups on LR sell for the same price as pups on MR? 

 

 

LR now its the same cost as main now to register them yet you cant show them you cant breed from them no matter how high their quality. Limit isnt for the pet quality puppies anymore. its for every pup you want to ensure cant be used to continue their heritage 

[Deeds]

This is my first experience of LR in over 30 years of purchasing the same breed.  All other dogs I purchased were automatically on MR.  Previously LR was never mentioned when I bought a pup.