Too Much Protein?

[Prydenjoy]

My friend has a few dogs, two of them are 6 month old pups. She is always saying stuff about too much protein, as if any protein is too much, apparently all the high quality foods have too much protien so the dogs get Bonnie puppy. She also has a Dane that wont put on weight, I suggested Eagle Pack (works for my dogs) but apparently it has FAR too much protein for Danes. I know that too much protein can cause problems, but what about not enough protein? The Dane also has something wrong with it, no one knows what, but he shakes all the time - I'm thinking possibly muscle degeneration from NOT ENOUGH protein?

[Steve]

Its not about how much protein but more about the digestibility of the protein. For example when they talk of the digestibility of protein they use an egg white as a jump off point as this is the protein with the most digestibility . Feathers, hooves, fur etc are all protein but not very digestible Corn is about half as digestible as egg white. Protein is made up of lots of amino acids which are killed in cooking and storage and protein also needs various vitamins and minerals to help it do what its supposed to do. The one most people are aware of is the ratio of phosphorous [ which is in meat] and calcium Too much calcium and the body will leach phosphorous from the bones and organs to assimilate, too much phosphorous and it will leach the calcium . So its not that much to do with how much protein but what the protein is and what else you feed with the protein.

Commercial dog foods which give the percentage of proetein on the label dont necessarily mean they have more digestible protein. There isnt anything to worry about with too much if you feed a balanced varied diet.

[espinay2]

What Steve said.

Except it is egg yolk, not egg white which is the 'benchmark' for protein.

[Prydenjoy]

Thanks for the info, but now I'm confused...

Firstly, she said adult dry foods have too much protein for pups, I thought it was the calcium/phosphurus ratio (like Steve mentioned) that was different in adult foods. I know a lot of people say to feed pups on adult dog foods, does that still stand or have opinions changed on this?

She's switching the pups to BARF, so thats great, however the Dane is still on dry food, Bonnie Working Formula I believe, he is 15 months old. He just wont keep the weight on, and like I said, he has that muscle/nervous system problem (whatever it is). What steve was saying about the digestability of protein, I would imagine the protein source in this would be not very digestable, and also low (otherwise she wouldn't be feeding it) - could this extremely low protein diet be the reason he doesn't put on weight? What problems would a higher protien diet possibly give him? Is there any evidence to say that a dog with his problems should be getting more protein/fat and less grains?

[KitKat]

I must admit if i had agiant breed dog i'd be looking at feeding something of very high quality that is specifically made for giant breeds...eg..Royal Canin Giant Breed, Eagle Pack Giant Breed, Nutrience Giant/Large Breed, etc etc

ETA - many of these come in stages for the dogs as well...like baby puppy giant, junior giant, etc etc

Edited May 17, 2005 by KitKat

[Cordelia]

At 15mths, the Dane could be put onto a higher protein diet with no ill effects for growth plates etc.

Even the speciaist giant breed formula's are massively high in protein (often over 28%) and it isn't good for their legs in particular.

A high protein diet makes giant breeds grow too quickly thus putting too much stress on joints.

Bonnie working Dog is actually a decent food and he should b putting on some weight as long as he isn't being exercised much.

Having said that...... my Genevieve is 2 1/2 yrs now so has pretty much finished growing and I have so much trouble keeping weight on her too. She's as lanky as all get out and I've just put her on to Eukanuba Puppy in the hope that she'll bulk up a bit now.

[Prydenjoy]

Is there any reason for Great Danes in particular, to have a low protein diet throughout their life? What is a good protein level then? Is the protein in Eagle Pack Large Breed Puppy Formula a good level?

KitKat, I agree with you - even with my Boxer I am ever so cautious that he is getting the proper nutrition. The reason I go with Eagle Pack (as an extra to his BARF diet) is because they've done their own extensive research on large and giant breeds, studies done on other foods still show Great Danes to develop a lot of problems if fed puppy foods, which is why Eagle Packs formulas are based on their own, seperate research.

Cordelia, he doesn't get exercised too much and is very lanky. She has tried all sorts of supplements etc but he is not going to put on weight unless the actual food he is eating is nutrient dense enough, the Bonnie obviously isn't working. I'd love to see him healthy and fat enough that she will begin showing him again, at the moment he is just too skinny to be shown. I just can't convince her to put him on a different food.

[espinay2]

That 'don't feed a giant dog high protein' is a bit of a furfy.

I have a giant breed - Pyrenean Mountain Dogs - and raise them on raw. I know quite a lot of folks who raise giant breeds on raw and have no issues with growth - in fact they tend to have less issues.

Here is an excellent article on protein amounts and growing dogs:

http://b-naturals.com/Jan2004.php

[StevieandSally]

Just lost my whole post so wont type it all again, but in short it all depends on the dog. i had to resort to Eagle pack power which is 30 % protien to help my large breed who just was not thriving. It also helped his littermate who was thin.

There is a cheaper version of an almost Eaglepack equivelent made in Oz which is Alacarte. If you want the link let me know.

[Steve]

Egg Whites are used as a base for the ratings Not that it matters much all partsof the egg have a good digestibility rating .

I wouldnt expect that the shaking would be a symptom of a protein deficiency You'd be more likely to see a dull coat etc first

Some large breed breeders believe its better to keep the protein down to about 23 percent to help keep the pup growing more slowly and others dont agree that this will impact and use about 30 percent to feed the bones and joints more.

But its still all about what kind of protein and what else you feed with it .

--------------------

[Nadia]

You also need to look at HOW MUCH the dog is being fed.

Is he being fed sufficient to actually put on condition.

What are his motions like? He could have an absorption issue.

Individual dogs have different requirements, what one will do really well on another wont.

Some animals are just very lean and hard to have looking the way we would like, yet may be perfectly healthy.

If he was mine I would feed him lots of lamb and mutton flaps, chicken with skin on, and see what happens.

[Staff'n'Toller]

I feed a premium quality dry food to my pup and did a little bit of research about eagle pack as I wanted to feed that if it had less protein- it doesn't- protein ratio's are about the same in all the foods that I looked at.

What is more important is the 'energy' value of the food- in other words what is the useable energy per serving. In large breed puppy dry foods you will find they are a fair amount less than the regular puppy dry....so feeding that to a large breed dog would be better.

Adult foods have less useable energy again- so that's probably why they are recommended to feed to large breed pups.

Mel.

[debazen]

Some Danes are slow to mature, and once they hit around the 3 year mark they can then start to fill out,

I know a few Dane owners that have had a hard job putting weight on their Danes, and have had alot of luck by adding raw hamburger mince to their kibble, (I know some people dont like to add raw to kibble,)but just as good and even tastier is to fry it up a little and then pour the mince aswell as the juice over his kibble,

I luckily have never had any problem keeping weight on our Dane, he is the biggest guts out,

I cant even have our fruit bowl sitting out on the bench , otherwise he will just sit there staring at the fruit all day leaving big puddles of drool all over the floor(his favoutite at the moment are Bobby bananas)

But I also increased Jonahs protein level when he hit 1 year, not too much though ,

If you do a search for Satin Balls on the net, it will bring up a recipe that is a sure winner for putting weight on Danes, its better known as Doggy Crack

Susan

Edited May 18, 2005 by Luvmydane

[StevieandSally]

I luckily have never had any problem keeping weight on our Dane, he is the biggest guts out,

I cant even have our fruit bowl sitting out on the bench , otherwise he will just sit there staring at the fruit all day leaving big puddles of drool all over the floor(his favoutite at the moment are Bobby bananas)

HAHAHAHAHA!! Thats soooo funny to picture that!

I just luv Danes.!

[Prydenjoy]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Adding hamburger meat to the kibble sounds like a great idea. The problem I have with satin balls is that they contain so many grains, in my opinion grains should NEVER be added to a diet based on kibble, because that has more than enough grains in it already, even the good quality stuff.

On that note, I think it is sooo much easier to feed a balanced BARF diet than try to work out what kibble you should be feeding! At least then everything is in its natural state, and it is hard to over dose on something when you are getting it from REAL food!

If he was my dog I'd probably be mixing Eagle Pack Power and Large Breed Formula half and half, giving him a cup or two of that in the morning, then a meal of lamb flaps, followed by a large evening meal of chicken wings and thighs, balanced out with the occasional meal of veggies and offal. The Power Formula probably does have too much protein, but mixed with all that other food in such a small portion it probably wouldn't hurt - I'd choose that one though because its so nutrient dense, on a skinny dog I wouldn't be feeding anything that wasn't nutrient dense.

[StevieandSally]

If he was my dog I'd probably be mixing Eagle Pack Power and Large Breed Formula half and half, giving him a cup or two of that in the morning, then a meal of lamb flaps, followed by a large evening meal of chicken wings and thighs, balanced out with the occasional meal of veggies and offal. The Power Formula probably does have too much protein, but mixed with all that other food in such a small portion it probably wouldn't hurt - I'd choose that one though because its so nutrient dense, on a skinny dog I wouldn't be feeding anything that wasn't nutrient dense.

Yep thats basically what Im doing Jeanne. As you know Im an avid barfer but (and I had all this in the post I lost ) it was great with my first boy but this one just didnt thrive so I had to add something extra and the average kibble just didnt do the trick. I dont mix raw with the kibble either, dont think thats wise but I guess if you lightly cooked or warmed the mince and added it to any kibble, that would be great for buiding up and he could have a nice yummy warm dinner he would be tempted to eat. (Mine is a fussy eater)

Your right about the ratio to methinks one might as well get the highest level of protien in the bag tho for the money, you can always balance it out with other things.

My boy wont touch much fresh stuff tho The other boy would sit down with me in the arvo and share an orange and some water melon

I have never heard of satin balls..got me intrigued tho.

Hope she gets to the bottom of why he is shaking tho ;)

[MaxSpots]

She also has a Dane that wont put on weight, I suggested Eagle Pack (works for my dogs) but apparently it has FAR too much protein for Danes. I know that too much protein can cause problems, but what about not enough protein? The Dane also has something wrong with it, no one knows what, but he shakes all the time - I'm thinking possibly muscle degeneration from NOT ENOUGH protein?

I'd encourage her to take it to the vet for a check up.

Does he drink/urinate a lot?

Our Dalmatian, began to loose weight despite eating like a horse, he also had tremors and shivers.

One vet said it was an old age thing and he was feeling the cold

Eventually Another vet tested for parathyroid problems, kidney problems, ended up being cancer.

I realise our old dog is different from these Dane pups, but If we hadn't stuffed around trying to fatten him up and keep him warm, as the first vet said it was geriatric problems, and asked for tests earlier we may have got to the cancer sooner.