Mental Health Issues

[The Harlster]

Hi,  I think I probably need people to talk with to help me put things into perspective.  I have a 10 month old Beagle x who I have had from 8 weeks of age.  I sensed when I first got him that something wasn't quite right.  I know puppies are rough players and nip, but this was next level and he wasn't a cuddly, loving puppy.  He didn't sleep anymore than about 8 hours in a 24 hour period.  I was hoping some training would sort some of his issues, so at 12 weeks we entered a 5 week basic training course.  He learnt a lot, but his behaviour didn't improve and he wouldn't sleep.  It wasn't just the fact that he didn't sleep he would pace the house all night, scratching on doors, going outside and finding things to bring inside to chew up and all  of this at 1 or 2, 3 or 4 am.  He also has this weird behaviour where he will lurch at me and bite, for no apparent reason, no warning and therefore no prediction that it is going to happen.  If he is doing something wrong (like chewing chunks out of my coffee table) and I try to distract him or stop him from doing that he will lurch at me and try to bite.  I have taken him to several vets and he has been placed on medications for anxiety.  I tried another trainer behaviourist who gave me positive reinforcement and distraction training methods to use on him.  The medication and training has not made a scrap of difference.  He is unpredictable, has nocturnal wanderings and is very destructive.  I recently took him back to the vet who had a good long chat with me and also referred me to a Vet Behaviourist (animal psychiatrist).  I praise that vet for her kindness and empathy, but most of all honesty.  She said that I have done an amazing job with my dog he is well trained despite his mental health issues which are very complex.  She felt that there is no cure for this and it will not be just a 3 or even 5 year thing, it will be a lifelong battle.  I need to consider euthenasia as an option as his mind is very active and troubled and he cannot stop this behaviour, nor can he help it.  I spoke with the animal psychiatrist who more or less said the same thing, she also said it is nothing I have done, that it is most likely hereditary or something has happened to him at birth or with the litter.   What is also very worrying is he launched at my 2.5 year old granddaughters face yesterday.  Despite all of this he is a gorgeous dog who sometimes is quite normal and he loves his walks.  I am really lost as to what to do for the best.  It is really strange that a few years ago I had a dog with Cancer that I had to have put to sleep and although it was heart wrenching I didn't question that decision because he was suffering.    Why am I questioning putting this dog to sleep?  Mental Health Issues are still an illness, but I can't make the difficult decision to have him put to rest.  Please help.  Is there anyone out there in a similar situation?  I really do not know what to do.  I love him so much.

[Rebanne]

I pts a dog with mental health issues. My only regret was not doing it sooner. She was such a troubled soul. 

You can't put your grandchild at risk.

[The Harlster]

Hi Rebanne,

 

How old was your doggie, when you had to have her put down?  I am not saying that makes it an easier.  It is just that my little man is only 10 months old.  I was up all night again with him last night with his weird nocturnal wanderings and chewing stuff up.  This is such a hard decision. 

[Pjrt]

Maybe your dog has a health condition such as chiari-like malformation, Syringomyelia or such, that is the root cause of the apparent ‘behavioural, issues. 
any dog can have these conditions, but there are a few breeds such as Cavalier King Charles Spaniel that are much more prone than other breeds. 
I would have no issues euthanising a dog who is tortured by it’s mind. But especially with such a young dog, and particularly if it happens to be a CKCS a or mix of, I’d want to properly investigate CM a& SM. These conditions can only be properly diagnosed with an MRI scan and the results need to have a specialist read them. If it happened to be diagnosed, I’d still choose euthanasia, but I’d have peace of mind with my decision. 
people might think it’s a bit of a long shot suggestion, but personally, I’d raise it with a vet 
 

A bit of information

 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Scratch

[The Harlster]

Hi Scratch,

 

Thank you for your reply.  I have had Harley vet checked for pain and there is no pain suggested anywhere in his body.  He has had blood tests and scans and there is nothing apparent physically wrong with him.  That is what is making this decision so hard.  

[Pjrt]

20 minutes ago, The Harlster said:

Hi Scratch,

 

Thank you for your reply.  I have had Harley vet checked for pain and there is no pain suggested anywhere in his body.  He has had blood tests and scans and there is nothing apparent physically wrong with him.  That is what is making this decision so hard.  

It’s great that you are doing your level best to investigate Harleys issues. 
CM & SM are conditions of degree. You will see videos of dogs screaming writhing hallucinating etc. that it’s the extreme end of symptoms. Many affected dogs display very mild symptoms (some even none, being a problem in breeding programs). I’d be a tiny bit wary of writing off a structurally induced condition while the dog is still growing. 
has he actually had an MRI scan? 
 

I hope you can find some answers. 

[persephone]

A very hard decision indeed..and I am sorry you have to make it . However, where children are involved  there is no question  in my mind 

[Rebanne]

2 hours ago, The Harlster said:

Hi Rebanne,

 

How old was your doggie, when you had to have her put down?  I am not saying that makes it an easier.  It is just that my little man is only 10 months old.  I was up all night again with him last night with his weird nocturnal wanderings and chewing stuff up.  This is such a hard decision. 

Not quite 2 but I had been thinking about it for a year. I have to say, when it was done, I turned to my daughter and said OMG she looks so happy now.

[BDJ]

I can understand that it must be the hardest of all decisions - a young dog who is physically healthy.   But, as you said - he does have an illness, it is just that it is not in his bones, or skin etc - it is in his mind.

 

You have done all you can, and even though it would be extraordinarily hard, from the info you have given, there seems to be only one solution.

 

I don't think you will ever get to the point you will be 'comfortable' with the solution - and that says a lot of positive things about you - it would be uncomfortable.

 

If doing the MRI is financially possible and would help you - then do it.   But if it won't change the end decision, and the result would not be beneficial for further breeding programs, then it may not be the thing for you.

 

My thoughts are - who is benefitting from his life at the moment.  You aren't, your grandchildren aren't, and I imagine his mental state is not much fun for him either.  And - he has snapped and launched at a 2.5 yo child.    The consequences of the next time (there will be one) may be catastrophic.

 

Sorry you are in this position - absolutely crap

[Deeds]

This situation is only going to get worse as the disease progresses.  You are just delaying the inevitable. It's a tortured situation for the dog and your family.

[_PL_]

It's so hard when you can't actually see a physical illness that makes the euthanasia option less painful for you.

Go MRI or CT or further testing if it will help in your decision. But your dog is not well, and becoming very dangerous too.  

 

I don't know if he is suffering or if he is even aware of what he's doing - but his life is not happy and of quality. That's all we want for our dogs, is to be happy and loving life.

 

I'm so sorry but I wouldn't judge you for releasing him peacefully back to the universe.     

[Purdie]

I'm so sorry you and the dog are going through this awful time.

Years ago before I new better I purchased a Spaniel cross from a market.

She was a normal puppy at first and I taught her to sit and come.

At the age of 5 months she began to change not listening to me

running around trying to destroy everything she could get hold of.

She didn't sleep much and her body would twitch a lot in her sleep.

I thought perhaps she had gone deaf so I took her to the Vet .

At the vet she behaved very badly lunging and barking at other dogs

while I restrained her which caused her to bite my arm.

 The Vet got so annoyed with her he asked others in the waiting room if I could be seen first.

Basically the Vet said her behavior was all my fault and I shouldn't own a dog if I couldn't train

her properly.

I had raised pups before and never had a problem before.

The Vet took blood for testing only because I insisted on it;he said she probably wasn't deaf

then said de sexing might help her settle down.

 He also suggested giving her sedatives for a while to see if that helped.

So I left her there to be fixed.

When she came home she was very lethargic I thought it was due to the surgery.

I was given pills for her to take and was told to bring her back in two weeks for a check.

After 3 or 4 days on the pills she looked terrible glassy eyed and was walking in to things.

I stopped giving her the pills and she became more normal for about a week and was responding to me

and doing better on the lead out walking.

I should have taken her back to the Vet but was angry and felt humiliated by the way he treated me.

By the second week and all my efforts to spend as much time as I could with her training

she regressed and would not let me pat her if I did she would bite me on my hand.

I cried a lot was wretched with guilt and blamed myself for failing her ;

Went to the library and read every book on training and dog  illness that I could find.

Meanwhile I watched her when she slept and noticed the twitching was getting so bad that it kept waking her up.

This time I called another Vet in tears to the receptionist who kindly put the Vet on the phone.

Vet said we are closed but I'm here so bring her in.

After he examined her he said she had a serious brain condition sometimes seen in spaniels his own dog had it and was put down

as there is no cure.

He said she could be sedated all the time but it would not be a good life or a long one.

I left her to be put out of her suffering.

When I got home my family and a couple of friends berated me for doing it and I cried for weeks but I new I did the right

thing for her.

 

 

 

 

 

i

 

[Tassie]

Such a hard situation to be in.   But I think you are doing entirely the right thing by consulting with veterinarians specialising in behavoural issues.     And IMO, your consideration of the pup's quality of life is key, as is the safety of your granddaughter.  

 

You might find this blog post from a lovely, positive dog trainer in the US, who made the extremely hard decision to euthanise her lovely, but mentally unwell young dog.   She makes reference to an internet group called "Losing Lulu" - a support group for people who have had to make the hard decision fro behavioural euthanasia of their dogs.

 

https://k9infocus.com/losing-lulu/

 

It seems to me that our primary role as carers of pet animals is to ensure as far as possible that the pet has the best life we can provide with progessional help - which as @Rebanne points out, is not necessarily the longest life.

[Purdie]

I wonder if epilepsy could be a factor.Sometimes seizures only occur when the dog is sleeping as was the case with my dog.

She didn't sleep for long periods 10 minute naps with body tremors.

her eyes would turn a bluish color sometimes and she looked confused at times.

It was in the early 70's when she was diagnosed with' spaniel rage ' a term I don't like .

More recent times it is thought there may be a link to epilepsy.

I don't know all you can do is make observations and talk to the experts.

 

https://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/neurological/c_dg_seizures_convulsions

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rage_syndrome

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Purdie
add link

[paul1]

Attacking a 2 year old ,, no question about it you need rid of that dog , like YESTERDAY  THERS NO WAY IN THE WORLD WOULD I KEEP A DOG WITH INSTINCTS TO BITE A CHILDS FACE ,,, however  , not so sure i would put the dog down just yet ,   i would look  to give  him away to  someone  a bit younger than yoyrself with an energetic lifestyle ,, my mate had a beagle when we were younger  it used to come with us out shooting , that dog would start beying and running with his nose to the ground and keep going like the energizer man all day ,,  I also have a freind lives in the country  20 acres and his beagle does the same , nose to the ground and just walks up and down the hills  all day long ... Thers every chance your dog is just not getting enough excersise , and is bored and stressed ,,, I really would give him to someone with a property and preferably other dogs to play with   where he can get enough excercise and wear himself out each day ,,,,perhaps with the option that if he still shows the same problems , brng him back and then you put him down ,,, BUT REGARDLESS he has to go before he takes your grandaughters nose off   he's a dog he has big teeth and children have soft faces , 

[Pjrt]

@The Harlster

[Purdie]

Manchester Terrier-  Swedish Vallhund  ?

 

[Pjrt]

Having experience living with Mannies, that would be a hard no!!! Very crazy high prey drive!! Seriously craziest beasties I’ve ever lived with!! 
 

[Purdie]

32 minutes ago, Scratch said:

Having experience living with Mannies, that would be a hard no!!! Very crazy high prey drive!! Seriously craziest beasties I’ve ever lived with!! 
 

Good to know;

Have read so much conflicting info about them.

Have always loved the look of the Manchester.

So far I think Dalmatians might be the best bet.

[Purdie]

Sorry managed to post in the wrong topic.