Unpapered pups from registered breeder of other breed

[Confused2021]

Hi, sorry if this is not the right forum but

I was hoping I could reach out to the community so I can understand things and make peace with a situation. 

I'm a dogsNSW member and I feel strongly about ethics in dog breeding. I am the owner of a female dog on the main(unrestricted) register. For some time my husband and I discussed adding to our family and I even explored registering as a breeder so we could have a new puppy raised from our totally spoiled rotten only-dog. Ultimately I wasn't ready for any of that including having another puppy, something I thought I had made quite clear. 

This week my husband surprised me with a new puppy that he'd foolishly purchased without consulting me.  There have been some big upheavals in other parts of our lives and this is truly the wrong time for us to drop everything and raise a new pup.

 

He told me he had thought I would be okay with things as he'd found the puppy from a registered breeder over dogzonline, and she was fully papered. When I calmed down enough to review the paperwork supplied and discovered the only thing he'd been given was the microchip forms and a vet vaccination record. Further, whilst the registered owner on the chip records is an ANKC registered breeder, it is for two  unrelated breeds. The other red flags were that the puppy is only 9 weeks old (I don't k own anyone willing to rehome a pup of this breed so young) but the breeder had been apparently happy to seperate her from her mother and ship her interstate via plane. 

 

Its been a while since I last read the material that came with the registered breeder applications but I seem to remember it being stated fairly clearly that it was a breach of licencing to breed a litter without permission, and without registering the litter with DogsQLD or whichever state chapter. 

 

Whilst the fault in this situation is clearly with my husband for making a life-changing decision without my consent,

I think what I am looking to know is to what extent is this mess is also due to the actions of the breeder, and if anyone might be able to shed some light into how this might have happened. Is this the case of greed and exploitation with someone breeding a popular breed purely to profit from the pandemic,or could it be something well meaning like helping someone else out in rehoming a litter? I probably sound very clinical in my wording but I am so very upset, and very angry and I'm considering whether this is something I should report to the QLD chapter for investigation. I can't imagine anyone shipping such a small pup out without doing due diligence on where it was going and whether they were truly prepared for the commitment. I have too many concerns about the ethics of the breeder to consider returning the puppy to her mother and it would be too stressful to fly the pup again. Does anyone have any thoughts on what might have happened and whether I would be doing more harm or good to talk to DogsQLD?

 

[Rebanne]

I don't consider 9 weeks too young to go to it's new home. Whatever the breed I highly doubt it's still with it's Mum much. You need to question your husband more. There is often a delay in getting papers to new owners due to back log in the various offices. Victoria in the last few years has been very bad, often taking weeks.

 

I'm gathering the pup was bought in Queensland? I believe they can be registered straight into the new owners name and I have heard some breeders wait until all pups are sold before submitting the paperwork. Pups in Qld that are going onto the main register also need specific DNA tests.

 

You say the breeder has two unrelated breeds? I am assuming that you are going off the DOL listings? It doesn't mean they don't actually breed different breeds, just that they are not noted on DOL. In my breed there are several breeders listed that haven't bred my breed in donkey's years but still show up in the listings.

 

Except for certain rules you don't need permission to breed but yes litters should be registered.

 

You could check with QLDdogs if the breeder has actually submitted any paperwork. It would help if you had copies of the parents registration. And it is possible someone, had an "oops" litter so the  pups can't be registered. Breeder may be helping them out or the breeder might have had the accidental litter. But why would your husband say they were "fully papered"? You really need to pin him down. You sort of blame the breeder for not doing due diligence but you don't know how many conversations your husband and breeder actually have. Even if hubby says it was minimal can you 100% trust that is correct? And it's true that there are some breeders who wouldn't bother too much as long as they get the pups sold.

 

You also need to decide what to do with the pup. No shame in not being able to keep her. Sounds like a popular breed so there is most likely a breed rescue that could take her if you don't want to find her a new home yourself. Or you have to decide if you can do her justice if you do keep her.

 

Sorry you have been dumped into the middle of this.

[Diva]

Have you spoken to the breeder and asked about the papers? I don’t really understand the assumptions you are making about the pup being unregistered (assuming it is pure bred and not a designer cross) as sometimes registration papers aren’t available immediately and follow on.  I am assuming it is a toy breed for you to think it is too young to leave home, as in many breeds 9 weeks would not be at all unusual. Did the pup come with a diet sheet, breed info and such? If not your concerns may well be valid. But I think I would start by calling the breeder, in a constructive spirit, to find out if the pup is registered/will be registered. 

[Confused2021]

Thank you both. This is what I need, actual thoughts from people who know so much more than me. A dose of reality.

 

I asked my husband and he said he saw the puppy advertised on dogzonline as being available due to a "sale that had fallen through". He spoke to the breeder mainly through text and there was very little information other than that she was a registered breeder, the pup was fully "registered", vaccinated etc. He says at the time he made assumptions on impulse and assumed that pups sold on that site were purebred, papered etc. He confessed he didn't realise there was a difference and he hadn't asked the breeder any more questions. There may well have been miscommunication, he's not denying this and he understands he made a mistake not asking more questions. He was really just ticking boxes since he knew I had a concern about puppy mills and wanted to make sure I wouldn't get too upset (as if that was the only problem in this whole situation).

 

When I asked him to find the details, the puppy sale posting had been removed from the site but was able to look them up based on their name and contact number. They are registered for two separate breeds but not this one. Yes, it is a miniature breed that has become popular in recent years. It's not technically a toy breed but the puppy is about a kilo or slightly under. When we met and rang with a number of breeders long ago to find our existing dog, we were told by each and every one of them that they kept the pups a minimum of 10 weeks, and one or two were adamant that 12 was their standard as it was important to have the extra time with the mother and litter-mates for social development. I took that to heart.

 

Checking the paperwork and birth date, this pup arrived via plane at a few days over 8 weeks old. She arrived with no breed information, no name of sire and dame. No breeders contract. I have no idea if she was PRA tested or anything else. 

Since posting earlier, I googled the sellers email address and found they had previously sold pups on some 'pups4sale' site in the same popular recessive coat colour, around Christmas last year. Genetically there are only a few combinations of coat genes this produce this variation. I don't know what the truth is, however I'm no longer entertaining the possibility that it's an accident.

 

You are both right that the only person who knows for certain is the woman who sold my husband the puppy. At the end of the day, the problem isn't with or without pedigree papers. I'm just trying to understand why this happened because my heart had been well and truly broken. I have bonded to the puppy but our existing dog won't even look at us more. She is visibly distressed with the new arrival and we've made the decision to contact the breed rescue society about rehoming. It's not fair on the puppy or our existing dog to be burdened with this much emotion.

The only piece that's left is whether I should let it go or if talking to the Dogs QLD chapter could prevent anything worse happening. If this pup did come from the same mother as the litter on December, that worries me as well. I just feel like this never should have happened and surely the person who raised this puppy for 8 weeks should care more for it going to an appropriate home.

I'm sorry this is such a long ramble, I'm processing my grief at the same time.

[Dogsfevr]

To clarify which dogzonline site this one or dogsonline there are two .
Personally i think your over thinking it all because you dont want the pup .
The breeder can sell the pup at 8 weeks ,what others dog is there opinion & choice does not mean those who hang on to the pups till 12 weeks are any better because most bitches have had enough at a certain age & anything after 8 weeks then requires a breeder who is very mindful off socializing well ,exposing it to outside world & going the extra yards for the next 4 weeks to ensure the pup has meet the crucial aspects of that life stage not just sat in the backyard till 12 weeks just because .
We place out at 8 sometimes 10 weeks ,factors can vary from the weather ,the actual litter ,how involved the mum is being & the actual homes .
Some pups run on to 12 weeks can be harder to adjust if the breeder hasnt given skills to learn .At 5 weeks we start lead training ,6 weeks first full grooming session with clippers .others hang on till 10 weeks & do nothing ,its not a black n white scenario

Dogs QLD are very behind in litter regos & in our scenario im listed for 3 breeds on Dol,only breed one .
I actually red no red flags form the vague info your given to make any judgement .

Personally if this breeder is legit in what ever fashion  i would be pissed if you didnt contact me to return or rehome so ethics go both ways in your question which as a dogsNSW member would be something you tell anyone is to first off contact the breeder for help  & base you plans from there
You have chosen not to

Edited May 10, 2021 by Dogsfevr

[Diva]

There are things the breeder didn’t do that would not sit well with me. Not providing diet, husbandry and breed info is not good. But your level of emotion seems to only partially be about the breeder, and I doubt complaining to Dogs Qld would get too far if the puppy is healthy, chipped and vaccinated, and paperwork may be on the way. Still, you could always phone them to discuss your concerns as you feel so strongly, and check the litter has been registered. 

If your husband found the ad on Dogzonline, which is the site that makes this forum possible, the breeder is registered with their state ANKC body, so Dogs Qld, and the pups are indeed supposed to be purebred and ‘papered’.  They don’t take your ads if you are not. But if it was a similar site but spelt with an ‘s’ that is quite different and I don’t think those requirements apply. 
 

Many resident dogs take a week or two to adjust to a new puppy, especially if they are not used to youngsters. That is nothing to do with the breeder.  I agree that your level of emotion would not be helping either of them adjust 
 

‘Why this happened’ is not a question I really understand. Why what happened? Your husband bought a puppy. The breeder’s processes are not up to your standards, and I understand that disappointment and concern and that you would have been much more diligent.  I understand also that you didn’t want a puppy at this time. But you haven’t said there is anything wrong with the puppy, it is microchipped and vaccinated, it sounds like a legal transaction, and apart from the lack of husbandry info/not knowing if registered  I don’t see that you have a basis for a formal complaint. I’d still call the breeder if it was me and I had such concerns, and at least let them know where the pup is going.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Diva

[Confused2021]

Okay. It sounds like the right thing to do is contact the breeder. I can confirm that it was dogzonline not another as he took me to the website to show me. That was part of why I came here to ask. 

 

Sorry if I've not given any information needed.  I just didnt want to say anything that might be used to identify the breeder and cause more upset.

 

You're right, I made several assumptions without talking to the breeder. 

It's good to know there are clerical reasons the pup may not have been registered (yet). This is exactly the type of information I was looking for from the community. I will reach out to the seller and find out if they have a prefix, who the sire and dam were, if there has been any genetic testing, and what their plans were. 

The puppy is healthy, happy, well adjusted. She eats well and is emotionally secure. She learns quickly. I want her to have the most amazing life where she is wanted, welcome, a source of joy and not a reminder of past dishonesty.

[JRG]

11 hours ago, Confused2021 said:

Thank you both. This is what I need, actual thoughts from people who know so much more than me. A dose of reality.

 

I asked my husband and he said he saw the puppy advertised on dogzonline as being available due to a "sale that had fallen through". He spoke to the breeder mainly through text and there was very little information other than that she was a registered breeder, the pup was fully "registered", vaccinated etc. He says at the time he made assumptions on impulse and assumed that pups sold on that site were purebred, papered etc. He confessed he didn't realise there was a difference and he hadn't asked the breeder any more questions. There may well have been miscommunication, he's not denying this and he understands he made a mistake not asking more questions. He was really just ticking boxes since he knew I had a concern about puppy mills and wanted to make sure I wouldn't get too upset (as if that was the only problem in this whole situation).

 

When I asked him to find the details, the puppy sale posting had been removed from the site but was able to look them up based on their name and contact number. They are registered for two separate breeds but not this one. Yes, it is a miniature breed that has become popular in recent years. It's not technically a toy breed but the puppy is about a kilo or slightly under. When we met and rang with a number of breeders long ago to find our existing dog, we were told by each and every one of them that they kept the pups a minimum of 10 weeks, and one or two were adamant that 12 was their standard as it was important to have the extra time with the mother and litter-mates for social development. I took that to heart.

 

Checking the paperwork and birth date, this pup arrived via plane at a few days over 8 weeks old. She arrived with no breed information, no name of sire and dame. No breeders contract. I have no idea if she was PRA tested or anything else. 

Since posting earlier, I googled the sellers email address and found they had previously sold pups on some 'pups4sale' site in the same popular recessive coat colour, around Christmas last year. Genetically there are only a few combinations of coat genes this produce this variation. I don't know what the truth is, however I'm no longer entertaining the possibility that it's an accident.

 

You are both right that the only person who knows for certain is the woman who sold my husband the puppy. At the end of the day, the problem isn't with or without pedigree papers. I'm just trying to understand why this happened because my heart had been well and truly broken. I have bonded to the puppy but our existing dog won't even look at us more. She is visibly distressed with the new arrival and we've made the decision to contact the breed rescue society about rehoming. It's not fair on the puppy or our existing dog to be burdened with this much emotion.

The only piece that's left is whether I should let it go or if talking to the Dogs QLD chapter could prevent anything worse happening. If this pup did come from the same mother as the litter on December, that worries me as well. I just feel like this never should have happened and surely the person who raised this puppy for 8 weeks should care more for it going to an appropriate home.

I'm sorry this is such a long ramble, I'm processing my grief at the same time.

You also need to keep in mind that, these days, the airlines will not accept paperwork accompanying an animal.  This is stated specifically in the “conditions”

[Confused2021]

6 minutes ago, JRG said:

You also need to keep in mind that, these days, the airlines will not accept paperwork accompanying an animal.  This is stated specifically in the “conditions”

Thank you. I was also not aware of this. The microchip transfer paper and vet vaccination stickers were in the carrier in an envelope. Everything was soaking wet from rain on the tarmac but there did not seem to be anything else in there. I will make more enquiries.

[sheena]

Your first port of call if thinking of rehoming the puppy is to contact the breeder. Most good breeders require this so they have the opportunity of rehoming the pup themselves & making sure it goes to the right home.  A good breeder does not ever want to see their pups in a rescue centre

[Confused2021]

6 minutes ago, sheena said:

Your first port of call if thinking of rehoming the puppy is to contact the breeder. Most good breeders require this so they have the opportunity of rehoming the pup themselves & making sure it goes to the right home.  A good breeder does not ever want to see their pups in a rescue centre

 

I am getting in contact with her. My main concern is if she is profiteering that this would allow her to exploit the situation and profit a second time from reselling the pup. 

My second concern was having the puppy stressed by another plane ride.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Confused2021

[Dogsfevr]

46 minutes ago, Confused2021 said:

 

I am getting in contact with her. My main concern is if she is profiteering that this would allow her to exploit the situation and profit a second time from reselling the pup. 

My second concern was having the puppy stressed by another plane ride.

Your concern should be contacting the breeder and giving them the opportunity to have input .

Your concerns are over the top and based on no communication with the actual source .

You don’t want the pup fine sooner it’s out the better as a puppy will feel all this tension .

The plane trip is no drama and could be less drama than be shoved off to a rescue ,then a foster and who knows what from there .

This pup did not sign up for this first and foremost and it needs to be the priority not all the other stuff at present especially as your not keeping it .

 

The rescue will sell the pup  and the breeder has every right to resell the pup if returned in the same condition it left and if you communicate with the breeder they may refund purchase price but you pay the plane trip home .

At the moment you need to make the pup the priority off where it’s future is 

[Confused2021]

33 minutes ago, Dogsfevr said:

Your concern should be contacting the breeder and giving them the opportunity to have input .

Your concerns are over the top and based on no communication with the actual source .

You don’t want the pup fine sooner it’s out the better as a puppy will feel all this tension .

The plane trip is no drama and could be less drama than be shoved off to a rescue ,then a foster and who knows what from there .

This pup did not sign up for this first and foremost and it needs to be the priority not all the other stuff at present especially as your not keeping it .

 

The rescue will sell the pup  and the breeder has every right to resell the pup if returned in the same condition it left and if you communicate with the breeder they may refund purchase price but you pay the plane trip home .

At the moment you need to make the pup the priority off where it’s future is 

You are right. I am so very upset with how I've reacted to this and I'm even more upset now to think I've made things worse. This was never about money - The hope was that with a breed rescue being volunteer run that the interests of the puppy would be better served. I hate myself even more now for not welcoming the puppy, regardless of how it arrived or where it came from. I only want for it to have the best life and opportunity, I can see I've failed here and am a horrible person. The breeder is refusing to speak with me about the puppy so I will ask my husband to make arrangements. Apologies, I wanted to understand things better but I can see that the fault is with me alone.

[_PL_]

Honestly, as rescue if you approached me with a brand new baby you've received cared for and in great condition (you haven't mentioned condition, it's an assumption) I would say give the breeder who trusted your husband, a chance to refund you and return the puppy to them if you don't want to keep him/her. In my experience every registered breeder acted fast and honourably. 

Refund should go without saying but will need to be discussed and put in writing.

 

I'd absolutely freak out if someone gave one of my rescue dogs away.   Like, total meltdown. 

 

It does sound like you're in a bit of a panic sorry. So many thoughts running through your head at once and I do understand. But first step should be a call to your breeder and I'm very happy to hear you are.   

[_PL_]

11 minutes ago, Confused2021 said:

You are right. I am so very upset with how I've reacted to this and I'm even more upset now to think I've made things worse. This was never about money - The hope was that with a breed rescue being volunteer run that the interests of the puppy would be better served. I hate myself even more now for not welcoming the puppy, regardless of how it arrived or where it came from. I only want for it to have the best life and opportunity, I can see I've failed here and am a horrible person. The breeder is refusing to speak with me about the puppy so I will ask my husband to make arrangements. Apologies, I wanted to understand things better but I can see that the fault is with me alone.

 

No! You were asking questions that's all. You may have panicked but don't blame yourself. 

 

[Confused2021]

6 minutes ago, Powerlegs said:

Honestly, as rescue if you approached me with a brand new baby you've received cared for and in great condition (you haven't mentioned condition, it's an assumption) I would say give the breeder who trusted your husband, a chance to refund you and return the puppy to them if you don't want to keep him/her. In my experience every registered breeder acted fast and honourably. 

Refund should go without saying but will need to be discussed and put in writing.

 

I'd absolutely freak out if someone gave one of my rescue dogs away.   Like, total meltdown. 

 

It does sound like you're in a bit of a panic sorry. So many thoughts running through your head at once and I do understand. But first step should be a call to your breeder and I'm very happy to hear you are.   

 

4 minutes ago, Powerlegs said:

 

No! You were asking questions that's all. You may have panicked but don't blame yourself. 

 

Thank you both, you're more kind to me than I deserve. 

[Rebanne]

This was not your fault. Your husband on the other hand ,........

[Confused2021]

20 minutes ago, Rebanne said:

This was not your fault. Your husband on the other hand ,........

Yes.... unfortunately he now knows he's mucked up quite thoroughly. I'm not quite sure how we move forward to be honest. I'm hoping that one day we can both forgive ourselves for this and for choosing to not keep the puppy.

 

My dream is that the pup finds herself in a home with another younger dog who will be willing to play with her, as she has been craving attention that our older dog is uninterested in. 

[persephone]

All you've done is panic. You didn't  buy a puppy - your well-meaning husband sadly did , and I dare say he now knows
You and your dog had this pup dumped on you when you were not at all prepared ...and you reacted. 
I hope the breeder can take her back, I really do .It's where she should be .

33 minutes ago, Confused2021 said:

she has been craving attention that our older dog is uninterested in. 

AS for this - it's just perfectly normal puppy behaviour , and is where single puppy owners step in with training and toys- to fill the gap No big deal .Your current dog must be wondering what on earth happened! LOL 

[Dogsfevr]

I don’t see this as all about the hubby .

 

Maybe he wanted this pup for himself and you have the other dog to enjoy .That you both have a dog in there life .

 

Many older dogs don’t play straight away that is not abnormal at all.

It doesn’t mean pup needs to be placed with another dog this is where the humans step up as they would with an adult single dog with enrichment in there daily lives .

Its not craving attention from the other dog it just sees the other dog as it’s litter mates or mum if a good player .

 

 

Why is the breeder refusing to talk too you ?

Edited May 11, 2021 by Dogsfevr