Main register, limited register? Pedigree? Breeding whats required ? Can somone explain please

[sheena]

Just because a dog is sold on the Limited Register, doesn't mean that the dog has any faults that would exclude it from breeding or showing, but if you buy a dog on Limited Register then you are agreeing that you will not breed from that dog.  A good breeder will only put their very best pups on Mains Register, if at all, but that doesn't mean the rest of the litter have faults.  If that makes sense?  All my border collies have been on Limited Register & I signed a contract saying that I would not breed with my dogs. If I were to go against their wishes I could almost guarantee that word would get around that I broke my contract & I would find it very hard to ever find a good pup in the future.  But because my dogs are on Limited register, that doesn't mean that they are not good enough to breed from, just ethically I wouldn't & if I did then the pups would have no pedigree.  Limited register still allows you to take part in all dog activities except conformation shows & they don't need to be desexed to be able to do so, unlike a dog that has no pedigree which needs to be desexed before it can compete in ANKC activities

[asal]

On 21/04/2021 at 12:15 AM, Mikey88 said:

 

 

Thanks so much .

Abit about me im looking at buying a puppy i dont have any plans on breeding but i dont want any strings attached either

Thank you

 

these days there are very very few who breed now that dont want to control the pup they bred from the cradle to the grave mate. That applies to anyone you get a pup from, not just an ANKC member.

 

good luck on that quest. equally applies to most of the oodle breeders too, majority are already desexed before sale . my niece paid $7,000 for a blue merle cavoodle.

 

she seemed totally unaware there are no merle cavaliers in Australia. nor to my knowledge are there any merle poodles in Australia?

 

some one correct me if im mistaken?  n the little darling was already desexed at 8 weeks

Edited April 22, 2021 by asal

[sheena]

17 hours ago, Mikey88 said:

So if i did want to show or breed i will need mains ? 

But from what i read a few comments ago , mains are only needed if you wanted to join dogs nsw / ankc otherwise if u wanted ti join a different breeding organisation u wont need them sbd could still breed right ? 

 

As for showing u absolutely need them obviously ye ? But breeding is different depending who you join

Yes Mains are needed if you want to breed, but Limited is all you need to join Dogs NSW/ANKC & they don't need to be desexed. But if you have an unpapered dog, then it can also join Dogs NSW/ANKC but will need to be desexed & goes on the Associate Register

[Mikey88]

13 hours ago, asal said:

 

 

one upon a time Mikey. New people were welcomed by ANKC members. You could choose to buy a main register pup if you wished to show and breed your puppy.  If you wanted a pet the breeder would give you a copy of its parents pedigrees so you knew its breeding.  Also once long ago there were three classes of puppies,

That time did exist. it was in the 1970's and early 1980's.

 

Pet,  not for breeding as they had a fault not suitable to be bred from.

 

Breeding quality, good quality and conformation, well in the guidelines of the standard, quite suitable for breeding and thus on Main Register.

 

Show quality, good quality and confirmation but had that star quality that would always place them above the breeding quality puppies.

 

(my problem with the "show quality" is a percentage would be a tad more exaggerated in some conformation point that when bred together was and has for generations gradually moved many breeds away from the original standard, (eg, shorter and shorter faces, bigger and bigger eyes, narrower head, or broader head depending on the breed.) just to use Persian cats for example they removed "pleasant expression" so the gargoyles with virtually no muzzle squished beneath massive eyes could now win.

in dogs Red setters began to resemble letter openers their skulls were becoming so narrow. French bulldogs and pekes. pugs and Cavaliers lost their muzzles. As my vet Richard said, they shorten the muzzles but the genetics isn't shortening their tongues or their pallets or their nasal passages which are still the same size and now jamming up inside so cant breathe, keep their tongue in their mouth, or even their tear ducts function without blockages.

 

Today few seem to even know "breeding quality" existed

 

Today from what I see in the adds a majority will only sell every single puppy regardless of quality on limit register.   I call them Proudly Dead End Kennels.

 

They think they are the epitome of Ethical and Responsible.

 

An unfortunate percentage of ANKC members are what I now think of as "the thought police"   They are the self appointed witch hunters of past era's.   And like any witch hunter, completely ignorant that other narrowed eyed thought police are eyeing them for elimination too. Their weapon of choice, the phone, busy dialing the rspca, animal welfare and the targets local council.

 

 

what no one realised in the dog world was a lady began a new organisation in 1982, she called it PETA (people for the ethical treatment of animals)  nice cosy sounding name.  What it really was founded for was to eliminate all domestic animals. First on the agenda is dogs and cats.  about 1984 my ankc friends had began talking about "we have to get rid of backyard breeders and puppy farmers in our membership, they are ruining the reputation of the ankc".

 

I looked at my friends sitting there in their loungerooms planning what was essentially a modern version of the Salem witch-hunts.

 

I asked them, pointing to the back door.  "What is outside that door?    YOUR BACKYARD"  YOU are as eligible for elimination as every other ankc member, unless your living in an apartment with no backyard!"

they looked at me as if I were stupid?

I couldn't believe they have forgotten the lessons of the past? One of my friends parents are Polish, they knew about witch hunts by the Nazis, another friend is Jewish, he could speak 7 languages because his parents had fled the Hitlers pogroms and in their search for a safe haven been through 7 different language zones and learnt them all before arriving in Australia?   My own Mums fathers ancestors fled the Spanish Inquisition to Ireland to become the black Irish.

 

so in those bad old days there were over 50,000 ankc members in a population of some 16 million Australians welcoming you to become an ankc member.

 

fast forward to today, some 22,000 left in a population of now 28 million Australians piously sticking to the ideal of never breeding to sell "we dont breed to supply pets!"   I'm ethical, I only breed a litter to replace for the next generation.

 

Sadly Mikey you are going to have a very hard time finding some one who will sell you a main register puppy.

 

I do breed and sell main register puppies, but they are an unfashionable breed. also quite unsuitable for anyone who has no experience with a highly intelligent working breed.   So far pretty safe from attracting the interest of any actual puppy farm anyway as they are worth a fraction of the thousands the fashionable breeds get.

 

you need to get to know as many people with the breed you do like and hope and pray you find a nice one who will consider selling you a puppy on Main register.

But be careful.  when you buy your pup, make sure you ask can you have your puppy vet checked and return if your vet turns it down.

 

there are two reasons for this, some depending on the breed you choose can have significant breathing issues.

and as I discovered at a school sports day.  Although many breeders tell you upfront, yes I will sell you your puppy on main register so you can show it in the neuter classes. Many puppies today are already either desexed or vasectomised.   the lady at that sports day had her cute cavalier puppies in a pen, she didnt want to miss the sports day so had arranged for the new owners to pick them up there. As I played with the puppies I noticed the marks where stitches had been removed and commiserated with her how sad the whole litter had been born with hernias.   she blushed. admitted they were not done for hernias, the had all been desexed as 'None of the puppy buyers want to breed but they all insist they want them on main register, sooo they can't complain when none of them can reproduce can they?"

 

to want to breed today is to be suspected of being "only in it for the money" you are intending to become a "greeder"

 

Meanwhile there are so few purebred puppies to be found people are having to wait a year or more for even an already desexed puppy

 

there are rebels like me who will sell on main register  to keep our breed from extinction. But sadly 99% are desexed by their owners before they are 12 months old either vet pressure or so many  believe the propaganda not to breed to contribute to the pounds.  There just isn't a next generation coming to keep our breeds going.

 

but all the ankc breeds barring a miracle are on the slope to extinction

 

my vet four years ago predicted within ten years most pedigree breeds will be on or beyond endangered.

 

added to that the mad demand for oodle crosses

 

few purebreds even unpapered are being bred together to fill the x breed market and thus too are heading for endangered

 

PETA is so happy and confidant that last Melbourne cup day they went public over how successful their elimination campaign has been that they see the end of domestic dogs in sight.

 

 

Can we who love our dogs wake up in time and stop destroying each other and our breeds before its too late?

 

Peta threw in the seeds to begin the destruction from within.  (we have to eliminate puppy farmers, we have to eliminate backyard breeders,) came from PETA.

 

Ankc members heard it and took up the cry, with no idea of the agenda behind it, can the pack be called off?  can they reunite? because divided they are falling like matchsticks.

 

 

Thank you for your reply, it makes sense. And i just had a look at dogsonline and looked at a few breeds that intrested me every single ad said limited register so i can understand what your saying about ankc been dead End kennals. And the part about the backyard lol , okay one thing i dont understand is if they are breeding them and selling pups going through all the trouble of desexing the pups as you mentioned about the women in the park witch is full on i rekon. If they are so against other people getting into breedering then why are they breeding and selling dogs ? I dont understand. Are are they only breeding to better the breed ? And thats why the sell limited or desexed pups ? Or is it they want to be the only ones breeding dogs ? Can someone explain ..

Also technically if you were to buy a pup on limited register of them you could still join a different organisation and breed the pup ? So you would still have the same bloodline except you wouldent own the name sorta thing of its ancestors? Is that how it works ?

[Mikey88]

6 hours ago, sheena said:

Just because a dog is sold on the Limited Register, doesn't mean that the dog has any faults that would exclude it from breeding or showing, but if you buy a dog on Limited Register then you are agreeing that you will not breed from that dog.  A good breeder will only put their very best pups on Mains Register, if at all, but that doesn't mean the rest of the litter have faults.  If that makes sense?  All my border collies have been on Limited Register & I signed a contract saying that I would not breed with my dogs. If I were to go against their wishes I could almost guarantee that word would get around that I broke my contract & I would find it very hard to ever find a good pup in the future.  But because my dogs are on Limited register, that doesn't mean that they are not good enough to breed from, just ethically I wouldn't & if I did then the pups would have no pedigree.  Limited register still allows you to take part in all dog activities except conformation shows & they don't need to be desexed to be able to do so, unlike a dog that has no pedigree which needs to be desexed before it can compete in ANKC activities

So if you buy a dog on limited register is it illegal to breed that dog ? Or do you mean its only illegal if it states so in the contract you sign ? So in the contract if theres nothing about breeding the dog and say you buy on limited register yeah sure you cant join ankc but you can join a different organisation and breed it that way ? 

So all this matters for the ANKC If a person did not care about joining the ankc then none of this would matter to them and they could breed the dog if they wanted ? Obviously with a different organisation tho 

 

Because on gumtree i dont see any1 with ankc they are registered breeders with all there other breeding organisations that they are listing 

[Mikey88]

5 hours ago, asal said:

 

these days there are very very few who breed now that dont want to control the pup they bred from the cradle to the grave mate. That applies to anyone you get a pup from, not just an ANKC member.

 

good luck on that quest. equally applies to most of the oodle breeders too, majority are already desexed before sale . my niece paid $7,000 for a blue merle cavoodle.

 

she seemed totally unaware there are no merle cavaliers in Australia. nor to my knowledge are there any merle poodles in Australia?

 

some one correct me if im mistaken?  n the little darling was already desexed at 8 weeks

But if you didnt want to join a ankc how could they control what you do ? Also a cavoodle is a cross breed so you couldn't join the ankc anyways ? 

[asal]

25 minutes ago, Mikey88 said:

But if you didnt want to join a ankc how could they control what you do ? Also a cavoodle is a cross breed so you couldn't join the ankc anyways ? So in the contract if theres nothing about breeding the dog and say you buy on limited register yeah sure you cant join ankc but you can join a different organisation and breed it that way ?

 

 

your chances of getting a not already desexed puppy i suspect would be yours and buckley's

 

LOL they will burn you at the stake mate.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by asal

[asal]

21 minutes ago, Mikey88 said:

But if you didnt want to join a ankc how could they control what you do ? Also a cavoodle is a cross breed so you couldn't join the ankc anyways ? 

 

refer to the above.  sorry I cant stop laughing.   sent u a message look at the bar above if you dont know where to look it looks like an envelope

[asal]

38 minutes ago, Mikey88 said:

So if you buy a dog on limited register is it illegal to breed that dog ? Or do you mean its only illegal if it states so in the contract you sign ? So in the contract if theres nothing about breeding the dog and say you buy on limited register yeah sure you cant join ankc but you can join a different organisation and breed it that way ? 

So all this matters for the ANKC If a person did not care about joining the ankc then none of this would matter to them and they could breed the dog if they wanted ? Obviously with a different organisation tho 

 

Because on gumtree i dont see any1 with ankc they are registered breeders with all there other breeding organisations that they are listing 

 

 

O and just to confuse you even further many of them also have a version of the "limit register" and/or are already desexed or tied tubes in the girls or vasectomised the boys

[sheena]

11 hours ago, Mikey88 said:

Thank you for your reply, it makes sense. And i just had a look at dogsonline and looked at a few breeds that intrested me every single ad said limited register so i can understand what your saying about ankc been dead End kennals. And the part about the backyard lol , okay one thing i dont understand is if they are breeding them and selling pups going through all the trouble of desexing the pups as you mentioned about the women in the park witch is full on i rekon. If they are so against other people getting into breedering then why are they breeding and selling dogs ? I dont understand. Are are they only breeding to better the breed ? And thats why the sell limited or desexed pups ? Or is it they want to be the only ones breeding dogs ? Can someone explain ..

Also technically if you were to buy a pup on limited register of them you could still join a different organisation and breed the pup ? So you would still have the same bloodline except you wouldent own the name sorta thing of its ancestors? Is that how it works ?

You may be able to, but you would have buckley's chance of ever getting another dog off a reputable breeder, because word gets around & Limited means "cannot be bred from".  Most of the pedigree dogs that are desexed before they are sold, I would imagine, are the breeds mainly used in puppy farming.  You will never find a purebred, registered pup on Gumtree.  It is the Ankc register which you need to join if you want to partake in competition dog sports.  If you just want some cross bred or unpapered, pup form  untested parents & take a risk that the pup has no genetic faults & you will never want to do any dog sports, but you want to breed, then Gumtree is full of them.  But PLEASE do not buy aa Limited Register pup & then breed from it.   It makes me want to throw up that someone could be so unethical & dishonest to the breeder.

 

[Rebanne]

1 hour ago, sheena said:

You may be able to, but you would have buckley's chance of ever getting another dog off a reputable breeder, because word gets around & Limited means "cannot be bred from".  Most of the pedigree dogs that are desexed before they are sold, I would imagine, are the breeds mainly used in puppy farming.  You will never find a purebred, registered pup on Gumtree.  It is the Ankc register which you need to join if you want to partake in competition dog sports.  If you just want some cross bred or unpapered, pup form  untested parents & take a risk that the pup has no genetic faults & you will never want to do any dog sports, but you want to breed, then Gumtree is full of them.  But PLEASE do not buy aa Limited Register pup & then breed from it.   It makes me want to throw up that someone could be so unethical & dishonest to the breeder.

 

I have advertised on Gumtree and I know I am not the only one.

[moosmum]

14 hours ago, Mikey88 said:

Thank you for your reply, it makes sense. And i just had a look at dogsonline and looked at a few breeds that intrested me every single ad said limited register so i can understand what your saying about ankc been dead End kennals. And the part about the backyard lol , okay one thing i dont understand is if they are breeding them and selling pups going through all the trouble of desexing the pups as you mentioned about the women in the park witch is full on i rekon. If they are so against other people getting into breedering then why are they breeding and selling dogs ? I dont understand. Are are they only breeding to better the breed ? And thats why the sell limited or desexed pups ? Or is it they want to be the only ones breeding dogs ? Can someone explain ..

Also technically if you were to buy a pup on limited register of them you could still join a different organisation and breed the pup ? So you would still have the same bloodline except you wouldent own the name sorta thing of its ancestors? Is that how it works ?

I've been trying to to find a simple way to explain this for so long its too late.   ANKC will be irrelevant  to the breeders before long with Govt. legislation and commercial enterprise taking their place.

 

Think of Environment as a space.  Conditions that exist in that space manifest according to what is brought to them.

Identified subjects of that space (or identities) manifest according to their content,. Their DNA or instruction. 

One is a condition subject to change, the other a 'State" of being.

 

ANKC was founded to register and record pedigree dogs. So it was the founding of  'conditions' that could benefit breeders. What membership brought to that organization would decide its success and acceptability to its environment.

 

Then they made a huge mistake in accepting a statement or proclamation  that essentially says they do not recognize dogs that are not bred according to their own rules and regs. What is outside their own purpose of keeping records and breed standards. So corrupted the purpose of the organization from providing a service to dog breeders, who contribute to ANKC through their contributions, to a 'state of being' whos conditions or 'standards' must be  maintained despite whats brought to its purpose. There is a line of margin between the environment, and the organization. 

No longer a 'condition' of environment, but a statehood of it.

 

Mathematically, its a zero sum proposition. 

 

It means ANKC applies an arbitrary value measurement  where no measurements belong. 

The message that sends its membership is that  ANKCs Standards of statehood are of value and must be recognized.

Breeders on the other side of that statehood are less and should not be recognized.

The environment is less than its subject.

 

Statehood is the end goal, not Dogs.

The ideal state is unattainable in an environment that will never be static, so to preserve its value, it can only reduce what it holds.

Zero sum.

 

 

[Mikey88]

4 hours ago, Rebanne said:

I have advertised on Gumtree and I know I am not the only one.

I guess it depends what breed your selling , the ones ive looked at ive seen nothing 

[Mikey88]

5 hours ago, sheena said:

You may be able to, but you would have buckley's chance of ever getting another dog off a reputable breeder, because word gets around & Limited means "cannot be bred from".  Most of the pedigree dogs that are desexed before they are sold, I would imagine, are the breeds mainly used in puppy farming.  You will never find a purebred, registered pup on Gumtree.  It is the Ankc register which you need to join if you want to partake in competition dog sports.  If you just want some cross bred or unpapered, pup form  untested parents & take a risk that the pup has no genetic faults & you will never want to do any dog sports, but you want to breed, then Gumtree is full of them.  But PLEASE do not buy aa Limited Register pup & then breed from it.   It makes me want to throw up that someone could be so unethical & dishonest to the breeder.

 

So its more of a ethical thing to not breed of a limited register? Its not  legal thing ? Thats what ive been asking

[JRG]

Ethical, yes, but not entirely as the State has laws which also seek to control the activities of people who want to breed their dogs and unfortunately for dog breeders, the local and State people who put these laws together have been influenced by groups like PETA. (See previous posts) and some of the resulting regulations  are  ******* !

[westiemum]

I'm not a breeder but the laws in SA changed a couple of years back and all litters regardless now have to be registered with the Dog and Cat management Board - or I believe there are heavy fines attached.  So its now become a complicated process so breeders need not only dedication around the breeding process but all the admin that goes with it.

 

I have a friend who I suspect is going to BYB a litter of westies.  I think he went ahead and bought un unpapered Westie pup and then couldn't get any of the breeders to provide a stud dog for his girl.  So he's gone down the AI route but I suspect it will be another unpapered litter of my favourite breed. So very disappointed after all the time I spent helping him get it right.

 

IMHO if you are going to breed purebred dogs then do it right as a registered breeder with the ANKC and learn from all the generous breeders here or don't do it at all.  

Edited April 26, 2021 by westiemum

[Boronia]

if you do want to breed become a registered breeder and join that breed's club, there is a vast amount of help and support within the club and you'll have future-breeding opportunities and make firm friends

[WoofnHoof]

The main issue with breeding animals that have been registered with *other* registers is that there is no way to verify the pedigree is a true record of lineage. The reason a pedigree has inherent value is because it verifies that a dog is what the breeder/seller says it is. If another registry will register a dog that isn't verified then the pedigree is virtually meaningless. If another register is not rigorous with their parentage verification and record keeping then buyers don't really know what they are buying. As a result the inherent value of papers is not only compromised for that registry, but people begin to think ALL papers are meaningless except for showing. 

 

The reason a verified lineage is important is because breeding will often throw you curve balls at the best of times. The genetics of the animal in front of you is largely hidden, you see physiology and behaviour in the one dog but genetics is a complex science, and you can't always know what will pop up in the subsequent generations.

 

The experienced breeders, the "gatekeepers" some might say, have often spent many years poring over pedigrees, researching lines, observing dogs and their progeny, and their progeny, and so on. You can only make sense of that information with verified pedigrees. Now, not all ANKC breeders are ethical, but they are much more likely to understand the importance of those lines and mutligenerational implications of breeding than members of registries which do not have such strict regulation. Their opinion, like the pedigree itself, carries weight due to the depth of knowledge and experience implicit. That is why most will not sell a dog on mains to someone they don't know well, the rise of puppy farming and indiscriminate breeding has made them wary. If you put your heart and soul into producing a healthy animal, sound in mind and body then see someone breed it with a dog that is the opposite, just for the $, then it is no wonder this situation has occurred. 

 

So while to most people, these protectionist restrictions seem excessive, it is important to understand the reasons why. In some cases it is to protect the lines, the animals they have spent much of their lives developing. It is also to protect the integrity of breeds. As much as everyone loves their cross-bred pets, the first thing many people do is ask what breeds might be in it. And the reason these alternative registries exist is because people still believe a pedigree has inherent value in telling you what that animal is. Thus, the integrity of breeds and pedigrees *should* be protected.

 

[asal]

Yes what you say sounds good.

In actual fact so precious few have a clue what is behind the animals in the pedigree.

 

 

one of my friends only ever bred Australian champion to Australian champion, very aware she never wanted to risk the disasters so attributed to the dreaded "inbreeding"  so the dogs she used were never related in any way.  I saw more disasters in her puppies than I ever saw bred by another friend who regularly "inbred" to test potential parents over the decades. She had significantly less disaster puppies from her linebred and inbred's. because she had been identifying and removing carriers for many generations by then. This was how breeders of hundreds if not thousands had done before the so limited range of dna testing became available.

 

what so few seem to understand is if two dogs for example carry PLL  or two arabians carry SCIDS.   NO MATTER how unrelated they are the progeny can end up with PLL or SCIDS  and it was not because they were "inbred"

 

you can put two siblings, father to daughter, mother to son and believe it or not!  if they are clear of PLL, PRA, Collie eye, deafness u name it. or SCIDS for that matter none of the progeny although definitely inbred will not even have one copy of those defective genes. Some of them become prepotent champions of their breed and species.  Inbreeding has never created what was not there .   

 

Outcrossing can hopefully hide what is there for generation's until two carriers are put together and everyone screams OH NO they're inbred   

 

 

no other stud book bans the breeding choices of the members like the ankc does. and it did it to please the animal libbers baying for the extinction of all domestic dogs?

 

And which one is heading into endangered figures for so many breeds now?

 

which one is bleeding members at a frightening rate?

 

even more confusing, now despite the constant calls  to "eliminate puppy farms" 

the government has legislated that only POCTA compliant puppy farms are allowed to keep and breed dogs?

 

is it only me who is wondering what on earth is going on?

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by asal

[asal]

Neglected to remind you all

 

This addiction to "purity" of the pedigree to the exclusion of health or soundness is beyond me.

 

correct me if im wrong. but I believe all states now , (bar NSW) Will not register a litter until all the puppies have been parentage verified.

 

Millions in income to the dna labs for what purpose?   To ensure the 4% of mistakes are identified and corrected?

 

Yes that was the percentage of pedigree mistakes found when this technology became available. 

 

You have to be kidding.

But I know your not.

 

so How important is their purity OF PEDIGREE?

 

Well for starters how many of you realise when an ANKC breed has hit a bottleneck and is facing extinction or genetic bottleneck the ANKC can .   (and done in the past) open a register for grading up.   As was done for the Australian stumpy tailed cattledog.

 

So where did the graded dogs come from?   The general pet pool of people who love stumpies but none of their dogs are ankc registered, thats where.

 

so why the hysteria about knowing a pedigree is perfect for legions of generations when the actual health and diversity of the breed is the real issue.

 

only by opening a grading up system is many breeds going to have a ghost of a chance or being able to breathe again.   live longer healthier lives.

 

toy breeds normally have far longer lifespans than the larger breeds.  today so many Cavalier King Charles are dead by 7. just one example

 

DNA profiling for disease is far more important. except the amount of known markers is infinitesimally small among the legions of deleterious genes to be found on offer.

 

Identifying clear examples and including them in the gene pool should be top priority regardless of if they are already pedigree or outstanding unregistered example of their breed.

 

Even the ankc left that option open decades ago for just that purpose.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by asal