Main register, limited register? Pedigree? Breeding whats required ? Can somone explain please

[Mikey88]

Hi im new to this topic and some things im trying to get my head around. 

 

Can you only breed dogs that you have the main register for ? 

 

Or can you breed dogs without the main register?

 

Can you breed dogs on limited or no register? 

 

Or to breed a dog do you need main register and pedigree papers of both parents ? 

 

Are pedigree and main register papers the exact same thing ? If so then that would mean you have to buy a puppy with main register and pedigree to breed him right ? But then why when i msg someone about a pup and ask if the parents have a pedigree they say no but they are still register licenced breeders ? It doesnt make sense

 

 

Do some dog breeding organisations require different things for example one may require main register and pedigree papers , one may require only main register? And one doesnt require any register  ? 

 

Or do you legally have to have main register to breed execpt some organisations require pedigree papers where others dont ? 

 

If somone can explain it all ill appreciate it so much

 

Thanks so much .

Abit about me im looking at buying a puppy i dont have any plans on breeding but i dont want any strings attached either

Thank you

Edited April 20, 2021 by Mikey88

[Rebanne]

as far as I am concerned the only real registers are the ANKC and their world wide equivalent, the racing greyhound registries world wide and, though I know little about them, the working dog registries that also have world wide connections. All others seem to be made up to suit themselves.

 

Anyone can breed any dog they want. Whether they should is another matter entirely. Anyone can buy a dog from wherever they want.

 

If you are looking for a pup to be a part of your family then I suggest you research the breed/s that interest you. Find out what health tests should be done and why. See copies of health tests done on parents, even if the pups are cross breds.  Don't believe the "vigor" of cross breds. Most ethical breeders DNA test their dogs nowadays.

 

https://dogsvictoria.org.au/uploads/DV Registers_2018.pdf   explains main and limited registers for ANKC dogs

 

If you don't want "strings attached" then you just keep looking for someone who will sell to you.

 

 

[JRG]

Yes, it is rather complicated.

as Rebanne says the only official registries are the ones accepted Internationally.  These associations keep and guarantee the Stud Book. Ie they record all litters that are officially registered as pure bred so that the pup’s pedigree can be traced back hundreds of years.  This means that when you buy an officially registered puppy of the breed of your choice, it is guaranteed  to be of that breed with no additions of other breeds   going back for hundreds of years.  ( most Stud Books were started in the 1800’s.

Occaisionally people try to falsify records and get disciplined for their efforts because we can now get genetic information  which tells  us exactly who the parents and grand parents etc of a particular puppy are. ( and connect that individual to a certain family.)

 

sorry if if I have bored you with my ramblings.  Genetic tracing of individuals has come a long way and there is still a long way to go, but accuracy underlies all Stud Books.  Groups set up alternative Registries (eg for mixed breeds)because they can’t guarantee that accuracy.

 

[persephone]

10 hours ago, Mikey88 said:

ask if the parents have a pedigree they say no but they are still register licenced breeders

"pet/backyard breeders" can register as breeders with their local council - whether they are breeding mixed breeds or whatever - so yes, they may be 'registered' , but NOT registered with any Kennel Control Council - therefore any pedigree they may posses cannot be authenticated/recognised. Ask them are they registered with their State's  control organisation. have a look here for the relevant bodies . 

[Pucapo]

So to be a registered breeder with the ANKC, one must join their state body. (E.g. Dogs Qld. Dogs NSW etc) then sit an exam and apply for a prefix (kennel name)

These are the breeders that you find advertised on this site - Dogzonline.

 

That breeder must own a mains registered male and a mains registered female (obviously of the same breed) they can then breed that pair of dogs and register the puppies and provide pedigree papers to their puppy buyers.

 

There are of course rules regarding breeding which are all listed in the relative States codes of ethics

[JRG]

48 minutes ago, Pucapo said:

So to be a registered breeder with the ANKC, one must join their state body. (E.g. Dogs Qld. Dogs NSW etc) then sit an exam and apply for a prefix (kennel name)

These are the breeders that you find advertised on this site - Dogzonline.

 

That breeder must own a mains registered male and a mains registered female (obviously of the same breed) they can then breed that pair of dogs and register the puppies and provide pedigree papers to their puppy buyers.

 

There are of course rules regarding breeding which are all listed in the relative States codes of ethics

Correct. Except that the breeder only has to own the bitch (at least that is the rule in Victoria). You can agree with the owner of the sire to use him “at Stud” and for that service pay the  owner a “fee for service”.  There are rules and conventions about using a dog for Stud, but that’s another topic!  The owner(s) of the sire and the owner(s)of the dam have all got to sign the application to register the litter which (in Australia) has to be done by the owner of the bitch and registered in their kennel prefix.

[sandgrubber]

I go through phases of being pissed off with the pedigree registry system, and there are some good dogs that aren't registered, especially working dogs.  However breeding off register can get dicey....can be hard to find an unrelated dog that's health tested.

[Mikey88]

8 hours ago, persephone said:

"pet/backyard breeders" can register as breeders with their local council - whether they are breeding mixed breeds or whatever - so yes, they may be 'registered' , but NOT registered with any Kennel Control Council - therefore any pedigree they may posses cannot be authenticated/recognised. Ask them are they registered with their State's  control organisation. have a look here for the relevant bodies . 

So basically anyone can breed and sell pups legally.  But if you wanted to join ANKC then you have to have pedigree and main register of the animal correct ? So for the other dog breeding organisations you can join them without having the main register of the dog anf still breed and sell pups legally? Is that how it works ? Thanks

[Mikey88]

10 hours ago, Rebanne said:

as far as I am concerned the only real registers are the ANKC and their world wide equivalent, the racing greyhound registries world wide and, though I know little about them, the working dog registries that also have world wide connections. All others seem to be made up to suit themselves.

 

Anyone can breed any dog they want. Whether they should is another matter entirely. Anyone can buy a dog from wherever they want.

 

If you are looking for a pup to be a part of your family then I suggest you research the breed/s that interest you. Find out what health tests should be done and why. See copies of health tests done on parents, even if the pups are cross breds.  Don't believe the "vigor" of cross breds. Most ethical breeders DNA test their dogs nowadays.

 

https://dogsvictoria.org.au/uploads/DV Registers_2018.pdf   explains main and limited registers for ANKC dogs

 

If you don't want "strings attached" then you just keep looking for someone who will sell to you.

 

 

So you can join other dog breeding organisations without main register of the dog you own and stil breed them and sell the pups legally?

[Rebanne]

7 minutes ago, Mikey88 said:

So you can join other dog breeding organisations without main register of the dog you own and stil breed them and sell the pups legally?

Yes but is it ethical? If you buy a dog from an ANKC breeder and it's on limited registration you have to ask yourself, and the breeder, why. It may have a fault that makes it not suitable for breeding but no impact on its life as a pet. Who knows what your dog may pass on if bred with another dog. And ignorance is no excuse. I'm in Victoria and the laws are quite strict. 

[DogsAndTheMob]

30 minutes ago, Mikey88 said:

So basically anyone can breed and sell pups legally.  But if you wanted to join ANKC then you have to have pedigree and main register of the animal correct ? So for the other dog breeding organisations you can join them without having the main register of the dog anf still breed and sell pups legally? Is that how it works ? Thanks

Actually, there are fairly onerous and expensive legal requirements with which dog breeders in NSW must comply.

https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/299803/Breeding-dogs-and-cats-code-of-practice.pdf

https://ablis.business.gov.au/service/nsw/animal-welfare-code-of-practice-breeding-of-dogs-and-cats/16905

Edited April 21, 2021 by DogsAndTheMob

[Mikey88]

11 hours ago, JRG said:

Yes, it is rather complicated.

as Rebanne says the only official registries are the ones accepted Internationally.  These associations keep and guarantee the Stud Book. Ie they record all litters that are officially registered as pure bred so that the pup’s pedigree can be traced back hundreds of years.  This means that when you buy an officially registered puppy of the breed of your choice, it is guaranteed  to be of that breed with no additions of other breeds   going back for hundreds of years.  ( most Stud Books were started in the 1800’s.

Occaisionally people try to falsify records and get disciplined for their efforts because we can now get genetic information  which tells  us exactly who the parents and grand parents etc of a particular puppy are. ( and connect that individual to a certain family.)

 

sorry if if I have bored you with my ramblings.  Genetic tracing of individuals has come a long way and there is still a long way to go, but accuracy underlies all Stud Books.  Groups set up alternative Registries (eg for mixed breeds)because they can’t guarantee that accuracy.

 

Oh wow , okay so if somone wanted to be part of that then obviously they would HAVE TO get a dog with pedigree main register papers.  But if another breeder didnt care about that then they could buy a dog without main register and join some other breeding organisation become a licensed breeder then sell the pups legally yeah ? Im assuming thats what the people on gumtree are doing. 

Also even if you brought of a ANKC member but you only got limited register you wouldent be able to join the ANKC and register the pup because you got a limited register so you cant own the bloodline pedigree but you CAN join some other breeding organisation without the main register and breed and sell the pups legally, is that correct? 

[Mikey88]

3 hours ago, Rebanne said:

Yes but is it ethical? If you buy a dog from an ANKC breeder and it's on limited registration you have to ask yourself, and the breeder, why. It may have a fault that makes it not suitable for breeding but no impact on its life as a pet. Who knows what your dog may pass on if bred with another dog. And ignorance is no excuse. I'm in Victoria and the laws are quite strict. 

I have msged two ANKC members and they didnt want to offer with the main register.  Would you say because they werent happy with the pup ? Or ?

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Mikey88

[Rebanne]

22 hours ago, Mikey88 said:

 

A bit about me im looking at buying a puppy i dont have any plans on breeding but i dont want any strings attached either

Thank you

For someone who says they don't want to breed you sure are very interested in the whole process. 

 

[Mikey88]

50 minutes ago, Rebanne said:

For someone who says they don't want to breed you sure are very interested in the whole process. 

 

Yeah i am intrested in learning, i see no problem with that..

[leac1801]

3 hours ago, Mikey88 said:

I have msged two ANKC members and they didnt want to offer with the main register.  Would you say because they werent happy with the pup ? Or ?

 

Unless you want to show, and since you say you’re not interested in breeding, then you have no use for mains registered dogs and most breeders will not hand that over willingly. 

[Mikey88]

1 hour ago, leac1801 said:

Unless you want to show, and since you say you’re not interested in breeding, then you have no use for mains registered dogs and most breeders will not hand that over willingly. 

So if i did want to show or breed i will need mains ? 

But from what i read a few comments ago , mains are only needed if you wanted to join dogs nsw / ankc otherwise if u wanted ti join a different breeding organisation u wont need them sbd could still breed right ? 

 

As for showing u absolutely need them obviously ye ? But breeding is different depending who you join

[asal]

5 hours ago, Mikey88 said:

So if i did want to show or breed i will need mains ? 

But from what i read a few comments ago , mains are only needed if you wanted to join dogs nsw / ankc otherwise if u wanted ti join a different breeding organisation u wont need them sbd could still breed right ? 

 

As for showing u absolutely need them obviously ye ? But breeding is different depending who you join

 

 

one upon a time Mikey. New people were welcomed by ANKC members. You could choose to buy a main register pup if you wished to show and breed your puppy.  If you wanted a pet the breeder would give you a copy of its parents pedigrees so you knew its breeding.  Also once long ago there were three classes of puppies,

That time did exist. it was in the 1970's and early 1980's.

 

Pet,  not for breeding as they had a fault not suitable to be bred from.

 

Breeding quality, good quality and conformation, well in the guidelines of the standard, quite suitable for breeding and thus on Main Register.

 

Show quality, good quality and confirmation but had that star quality that would always place them above the breeding quality puppies.

 

(my problem with the "show quality" is a percentage would be a tad more exaggerated in some conformation point that when bred together was and has for generations gradually moved many breeds away from the original standard, (eg, shorter and shorter faces, bigger and bigger eyes, narrower head, or broader head depending on the breed.) just to use Persian cats for example they removed "pleasant expression" so the gargoyles with virtually no muzzle squished beneath massive eyes could now win.

in dogs Red setters began to resemble letter openers their skulls were becoming so narrow. French bulldogs and pekes. pugs and Cavaliers lost their muzzles. As my vet Richard said, they shorten the muzzles but the genetics isn't shortening their tongues or their pallets or their nasal passages which are still the same size and now jamming up inside so cant breathe, keep their tongue in their mouth, or even their tear ducts function without blockages.

 

Today few seem to even know "breeding quality" existed

 

Today from what I see in the adds a majority will only sell every single puppy regardless of quality on limit register.   I call them Proudly Dead End Kennels.

 

They think they are the epitome of Ethical and Responsible.

 

An unfortunate percentage of ANKC members are what I now think of as "the thought police"   They are the self appointed witch hunters of past era's.   And like any witch hunter, completely ignorant that other narrowed eyed thought police are eyeing them for elimination too. Their weapon of choice, the phone, busy dialing the rspca, animal welfare and the targets local council.

 

 

what no one realised in the dog world was a lady began a new organisation in 1982, she called it PETA (people for the ethical treatment of animals)  nice cosy sounding name.  What it really was founded for was to eliminate all domestic animals. First on the agenda is dogs and cats.  about 1984 my ankc friends had began talking about "we have to get rid of backyard breeders and puppy farmers in our membership, they are ruining the reputation of the ankc".

 

I looked at my friends sitting there in their loungerooms planning what was essentially a modern version of the Salem witch-hunts.

 

I asked them, pointing to the back door.  "What is outside that door?    YOUR BACKYARD"  YOU are as eligible for elimination as every other ankc member, unless your living in an apartment with no backyard!"

they looked at me as if I were stupid?

I couldn't believe they have forgotten the lessons of the past? One of my friends parents are Polish, they knew about witch hunts by the Nazis, another friend is Jewish, he could speak 7 languages because his parents had fled the Hitlers pogroms and in their search for a safe haven been through 7 different language zones and learnt them all before arriving in Australia?   My own Mums fathers ancestors fled the Spanish Inquisition to Ireland to become the black Irish.

 

so in those bad old days there were over 50,000 ankc members in a population of some 16 million Australians welcoming you to become an ankc member.

 

fast forward to today, some 22,000 left in a population of now 28 million Australians piously sticking to the ideal of never breeding to sell "we dont breed to supply pets!"   I'm ethical, I only breed a litter to replace for the next generation.

 

Sadly Mikey you are going to have a very hard time finding some one who will sell you a main register puppy.

 

I do breed and sell main register puppies, but they are an unfashionable breed. also quite unsuitable for anyone who has no experience with a highly intelligent working breed.   So far pretty safe from attracting the interest of any actual puppy farm anyway as they are worth a fraction of the thousands the fashionable breeds get.

 

you need to get to know as many people with the breed you do like and hope and pray you find a nice one who will consider selling you a puppy on Main register.

But be careful.  when you buy your pup, make sure you ask can you have your puppy vet checked and return if your vet turns it down.

 

there are two reasons for this, some depending on the breed you choose can have significant breathing issues.

and as I discovered at a school sports day.  Although many breeders tell you upfront, yes I will sell you your puppy on main register so you can show it in the neuter classes. Many puppies today are already either desexed or vasectomised.   the lady at that sports day had her cute cavalier puppies in a pen, she didnt want to miss the sports day so had arranged for the new owners to pick them up there. As I played with the puppies I noticed the marks where stitches had been removed and commiserated with her how sad the whole litter had been born with hernias.   she blushed. admitted they were not done for hernias, the had all been desexed as 'None of the puppy buyers want to breed but they all insist they want them on main register, sooo they can't complain when none of them can reproduce can they?"

 

to want to breed today is to be suspected of being "only in it for the money" you are intending to become a "greeder"

 

Meanwhile there are so few purebred puppies to be found people are having to wait a year or more for even an already desexed puppy

 

there are rebels like me who will sell on main register  to keep our breed from extinction. But sadly 99% are desexed by their owners before they are 12 months old either vet pressure or so many  believe the propaganda not to breed to contribute to the pounds.  There just isn't a next generation coming to keep our breeds going.

 

but all the ankc breeds barring a miracle are on the slope to extinction

 

my vet four years ago predicted within ten years most pedigree breeds will be on or beyond endangered.

 

added to that the mad demand for oodle crosses

 

few purebreds even unpapered are being bred together to fill the x breed market and thus too are heading for endangered

 

PETA is so happy and confidant that last Melbourne cup day they went public over how successful their elimination campaign has been that they see the end of domestic dogs in sight.

 

 

Can we who love our dogs wake up in time and stop destroying each other and our breeds before its too late?

 

Peta threw in the seeds to begin the destruction from within.  (we have to eliminate puppy farmers, we have to eliminate backyard breeders,) came from PETA.

 

Ankc members heard it and took up the cry, with no idea of the agenda behind it, can the pack be called off?  can they reunite? because divided they are falling like matchsticks.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by asal

[asal]

Mikey, this link is the peta interview I was referring too.  its on the "in the news" section

 

 

https://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/273000-official-press-release-always-been-working-towards-the-extinction-of-our-pets/?tab=comments#comment-6969826

 

[Tassie]

Just for the OP's information, the ANKC is not just an organisation for breeders or would be breeders or conformation show people.  It is also the main sanctioning body for many different kinds of dog competitions ... such as agility, obedience, rally, dances with dogs, tricks, scent work, earthdog, herding, drafting (cart pulling) .  These competitions are open to people who become people qho becomes members, and register their dog with the ANKC.  If the dog is not purebred ANKC Registered (Main or Limited), then it will need to be desexed and registered on the ANKC Associate Register.   An exception to the desexing Requirement for non ANKC pedigreed dogs, is made for dogs registered with a different internationally registered assocation  such as the International Sheep Dog Society .. these dogs can remain entire, and can be registered on the ANKC Sporting Register. 

Many community dog training clubs are affiliated with the ANKC, and hold competitions regularly.

It;s worth noting too, that even if a person buys a dog on the Limited Register, it is possible to negotiate with the breeder who may agree to upgrade the pup so that it can be shown in conformation. .. but that will only happen if the breeder thinks that the pup may be a reasonable show prospect, and there is a relationship of trust between the breeder and the owner.