Natural Breeding

[Rebanne]

Just now, JRG said:

I am sorry you feel like that;  it was am interesting discussion.

I personally do not agree with ROUTINE AI or Caesarian.  Any species or breed that relies on artificial methods to reproduce, is headed for extinction.

 

And if you don't use AI, many breeds, and not just dogs, will become extinct. 

[JRG]

33 minutes ago, Rebanne said:

And if you don't use AI, many breeds, and not just dogs, will become extinct. 

 

33 minutes ago, Rebanne said:

And if you don't use AI, many breeds, and not just dogs, will become extinct. 

I agree but I did not say never use assisted breeding, I said use it routinely.  I have been breeding dogs for 45 years and can count on one hand the number of times I have used AI exclusively and on one hand the times I have elected to have a Caesar that was not due to mis presentation or other problem that developed during whelping.

i assure I use and appreciate the advice and skill of my repro specialist vet

[asal]

6 hours ago, hollee said:

OK if I'm not a breeder you don't know why its so important to me?

I was just interested because of some things I had observed. I'm sorry if you think that I shouldnt ask questions or show an interest in things. That's alright, thanks for the replies anyway.

I don't post often anyway, I'm a nobody in the dog world, just love all my animals.

I'm suitably chastened and its no loss to anyone, I probably wouldn't post again.

Please dont be chased away.

Its people NOT questioning the mess the show breeders are happy with that created the disasters featured on Pedigree Dogs Exposed.

 

Hugs. you raised valid points.

 

the idiots shoot the messenger, something even the King of Persia refused to do no matter how bad the news.

 

[Diva]

The sires I have wanted to use have been overseas so I have imported semen and used ai for both my litters.  I will do so again without the slightest compunction.  The access to genetic material that would otherwise be unavailable is invaluable and I find it much less stressful than importing a living dog which might suffer distress in flight or quarantine. I am now contemplating a natural mating but if I didn’t have easy access to that particular male I would be doing ai with frozen again most likely. If that means I am making it ‘routine’ I am more than happy with my decisions. 
I don’t have the same amount of experience with Caesarians so won’t comment on those, except to say they are not common in my breed but are sometimes necessary for veterinary reasons, like a stuck pup. I have not heard their use in that situation poorly judged by other breeders, I hope I never do. 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Diva

[asal]

3 hours ago, Diva said:

The sires I have wanted to use have been overseas so I have imported semen and used ai for both my litters.  I will do so again without the slightest compunction.  The access to genetic material that would otherwise be unavailable is invaluable and I find it much less stressful than importing a living dog which might suffer distress in flight or quarantine. I am now contemplating a natural mating but if I didn’t have easy access to that particular male I would be doing ai with frozen again most likely. If that means I am making it ‘routine’ I am more than happy with my decisions. 
I don’t have the same amount of experience with Caesarians so won’t comment on those, except to say they are not common in my breed but are sometimes necessary for veterinary reasons, like a stuck pup. I have not heard their use in that situation poorly judged by other breeders, I hope I never do. 

 

We do need to be able to make our own decisions. based on circumstances.

the real problem has become this push by politicians to legislated our right to make decisions based on our individual circumstances.  for example arbitrarily deciding how many litters you may breed with nothing to differentiate between a 1 pup "litter" and 15 pup "litter"

[sandgrubber]

On 17/02/2021 at 2:57 AM, asal said:

We do need to be able to make our own decisions. based on circumstances.

the real problem has become this push by politicians to legislated our right to make decisions based on our individual circumstances.  for example arbitrarily deciding how many litters you may breed with nothing to differentiate between a 1 pup "litter" and 15 pup "litter"

While I agree that many governments make stupid decisions about dog breeding, I'm not sure whether a large litter is any harder on the bitch than a singleton. 

[asal]

On 18/02/2021 at 3:08 PM, sandgrubber said:

While I agree that many governments make stupid decisions about dog breeding, I'm not sure whether a large litter is any harder on the bitch than a singleton. 

 

the stupidity is the fact that the owner of a singleton producer is hamstrung on now many puppies she is allowed to have. my Bluie had 8 pups before she finally had a daughter to continue her line. today thanks to the thought police she would never have been born. Meanwhile the owners of 15 litter pups has 120 pups to choose from.

When I raised this anomaly the owners who have the choice of over 100 pups told me I "should accept what nature gave you".

as for the what I consider fools who think they should only breed one or at most 2 litters to choose for the next generation are not breeders.

you need to have a half decent number to select from to maintain not only the gene pool but genetic diversity. but That's not politically correct.

 

so best practice goes out the window.

 

as for the education level of vets today left me not impressed

 

had a litter with prentation problems so needed a ceaser.  lovely puppies all 7, what does she say?   "Poor mum, they will suck the life out of her."

 

If she truely believed that?  Why was I not offered a feeding chart to ensure she was adequately fed for goodness sakes?

 

I told her she will gain weight , she will have go on a diet after they are weaned.

 

She told me I "will learn that is not the case, the puppies WILL suck the life out of her"

 

I made a point of taking them back so she could see for herself.

 

she was not a just out of uni newbie vet?

 

This is not acceptable no wonder so many laws when even modern day vets do not know our basic management

job?

 

 

[sandgrubber]

16 hours ago, asal said:

 

the stupidity is the fact that the owner of a singleton producer is hamstrung on now many puppies she is allowed to have. my Bluie had 8 pups before she finally had a daughter to continue her line. today thanks to the thought police she would never have been born. Meanwhile the owners of 15 litter pups has 120 pups to choose from.

When I raised this anomaly the owners who have the choice of over 100 pups told me I "should accept what nature gave you".

as for the what I consider fools who think they should only breed one or at most 2 litters to choose for the next generation are not breeders.

you need to have a half decent number to select from to maintain not only the gene pool but genetic diversity. but That's not politically correct.

 

so best practice goes out the window.

 

as for the education level of vets today left me not impressed

 

had a litter with prentation problems so needed a ceaser.  lovely puppies all 7, what does she say?   "Poor mum, they will suck the life out of her."

 

If she truely believed that?  Why was I not offered a feeding chart to ensure she was adequately fed for goodness sakes?

 

I told her she will gain weight , she will have go on a diet after they are weaned.

 

She told me I "will learn that is not the case, the puppies WILL suck the life out of her"

 

I made a point of taking them back so she could see for herself.

 

she was not a just out of uni newbie vet?

 

This is not acceptable no wonder so many laws when even modern day vets do not know our basic management

job?

I can see your point of view, but it could also be argued that low fertility bitches aren't the best breeding stock. IMO the ideal brood bitch throws large litters without problems and is an excellent mother.  No real disagreement though.  I have never seen any evidence that a bitches health is harmed by having many litters, given proper nutrition and care.  Indeed, the risk of pyometra is reduced by periodic litters.  (Repeat singletons would seem, often, to mean repeat Ceasars, which is a health risk). 

[asal]

6 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

I can see your point of view, but it could also be argued that low fertility bitches aren't the best breeding stock. IMO the ideal brood bitch throws large litters without problems and is an excellent mother.  No real disagreement though.  I have never seen any evidence that a bitches health is harmed by having many litters, given proper nutrition and care.  Indeed, the risk of pyometra is reduced by periodic litters.  (Repeat singletons would seem, often, to mean repeat Ceasars, which is a health risk). 

thanks. agree with you. Bluie was from (wait for it) A litter of ten! Chihuahua puppies, her mum Winnifred was like a seedless watermelon with legs barely capable of standing with the weight.  I rang Nancy freaking out at her size, i used to look after her brood girls after she had her heart attack until she was recovered more. but Winifred every instinct was warning me this was going to be a potential disaster delivery.  Took her to Nancy and she agreed so we went to Marilyn Gill. she went into labour but no puppies were moving.  As I suspected she was too full of puppies to push normally so one normally self whelper too packed to push ended up needing a ceaser and she raised them all. I took her home and looked after them and her as Nancy was still too unwell yet. the docs said 1/3rd of her heart had died. they gave her 3 months to live.  stubborn old girl lived another 5 or was it 7? and dementia won the battle . Think Nancy Gate was an amazing lady. My friend since I was a teen.

 

So although I kept Bluie I was terrified she would emulate her mum some day .   so it was a complete mystery why she stuck to singletons all her breeding life. but frankly I didn't mind, she had no trouble whelping and they were stunners every one of them.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by asal

[asal]

THE REAL PROBLEM   

 

every dog, every situation is different.  these animal rights nutters trying  (and succeeding now) to force everyone to fit their ideas of best practice legislation they are demanding of the pollies 

 

from people who dont even believe in breeding any domestic animals in the first place  is beyond me?

 

The pollies are not even listening to the real reproduction vets first?

 

 

 

[westiemum]

A different perspective.  I bought my Sarah (RIP) as a four year old ex breeding bitch.  She had had 3 litters of 2 puppies, 1 puppy and then 1 dead puppy (IIRC).  That last litter shouldn't have happened full-stop IMO as she probably wasn't very fertile. Similarly, my Mia came from a brilliant breeder who said she had a litter of 2 puppies and then 1 dead puppy and was very distressed I understand.  The breeder took great care of her and decided she was for a pet home - and luckily she chose me!   She came to me desexed and is the most brilliant natured and looking Westie - so she wasn't a brilliant breeder but is the most fantastic girl, as was my Sarah.

 

[asal]

On 26/04/2021 at 10:44 AM, westiemum said:

A different perspective.  I bought my Sarah (RIP) as a four year old ex breeding bitch.  She had had 3 litters of 2 puppies, 1 puppy and then 1 dead puppy (IIRC).  That last litter shouldn't have happened full-stop IMO as she probably wasn't very fertile. Similarly, my Mia came from a brilliant breeder who said she had a litter of 2 puppies and then 1 dead puppy and was very distressed I understand.  The breeder took great care of her and decided she was for a pet home - and luckily she chose me!   She came to me desexed and is the most brilliant natured and looking Westie - so she wasn't a brilliant breeder but is the most fantastic girl, as was my Sarah.

 

interesting perspective, so if a bitch has any stillborn puppies she isn't "very fertile"?  . so you are unaware that having conceived the pup she proved her fertility but to you her fertility is still suspect if it is stillborn?

if they come back feet first a high percentage will be stillborn. simply because breech puppies, foals, calves and human babies can often suffocate before their head is clear. one the navel is crushed by the pelvis it will begin to breathe. so back to front its a death sentence for many breech deliveries.

 

to save one foal I had to hook his hips over my shoulder after pulling him out as fast and safely as I could, then because he was so big. could not swing him, compromised by stomping on his ribs to push out the fluid he was drowning in. Meanwhile praying none of them broke .............

he finally began breathing and ended up growing to 16 hands high. If I had not been there he would have certainly died.

so by your lights his mum had poor fertility and should be desexed and pet homed?

 

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by asal

[asal]

On 22/02/2021 at 4:14 AM, sandgrubber said:

I can see your point of view, but it could also be argued that low fertility bitches aren't the best breeding stock. IMO the ideal brood bitch throws large litters without problems and is an excellent mother.  No real disagreement though.  I have never seen any evidence that a bitches health is harmed by having many litters, given proper nutrition and care.  Indeed, the risk of pyometra is reduced by periodic litters.  (Repeat singletons would seem, often, to mean repeat Ceasars, which is a health risk). 

Bluey had 8, eight, singleton "litters" her life time total being, two less than her mum had in the litter of TEN,  Bluey was one of.  Winifreds other litters were 7, 7, and 5, so a lifetime total of 29 puppies all live born.   Bluey never had a ceaser, nor ever needed assistance for any of them. all were born front feet first and all strong as little chihuahua oxen.

Edited April 27, 2021 by asal