Natural Breeding

[hollee]

Hi there I was just interested in peoples thoughts/opinions on what I have observed with current breeding practices in SOME instances.I'll just tell you a little of my background. Firstly I myself only ever bred one litter. I was registered, had my prefix, yes did the required exams and had 10+ years of mentoring with an older breeder who had over 50 years experience before embarking on breeding my one and only litter. 

Out of the three surviving puppies, I kept two, who were shown twice by a friend ( I have mobility issues) and then I decided I was happiest with them as simply my beloved companions. Maybe I would have been called a " backyard breeder??"

Incidentally the two girls and I weekly visit an aged care home which they and the residents love (sadly not since Covid19, but hopefully with the vaccine rollout will be able to resume soon).

 

Well after that long winded intro, I wanted to put out there what I have observed and that is some breeders have seem to have gone down the routine path of  AI and pre planned Caesareans which I think is bad practice.

Of course I am not saying C sections due to emergency situations (I experienced that after 2 pups born and then an emergency dash).

Or the odd AI in special circumstances, but some I know routinely do one or the other and in some cases, both. 

I have to think this is mainly due to convenience ( for the breeeder) and surely this cannot be good for dogs in the long run.

I couldn't post this in the breeders section because I no longer have that status but was just interested in others opinions.

I am certainly not out to knock breeders because after my experience, I hold good ones in the highest regard.

Any thoughts?

[sandgrubber]

2 hours ago, hollee said:

Hi there I was just interested in peoples thoughts/opinions on what I have observed with current breeding practices in SOME instances.I'll just tell you a little of my background. Firstly I myself only ever bred one litter. I was registered, had my prefix, yes did the required exams and had 10+ years of mentoring with an older breeder who had over 50 years experience before embarking on breeding my one and only litter. 

Out of the three surviving puppies, I kept two, who were shown twice by a friend ( I have mobility issues) and then I decided I was happiest with them as simply my beloved companions. Maybe I would have been called a " backyard breeder??"

Incidentally the two girls and I weekly visit an aged care home which they and the residents love (sadly not since Covid19, but hopefully with the vaccine rollout will be able to resume soon).

 

Well after that long winded intro, I wanted to put out there what I have observed and that is some breeders have seem to have gone down the routine path of  AI and pre planned Caesareans which I think is bad practice.

Of course I am not saying C sections due to emergency situations (I experienced that after 2 pups born and then an emergency dash).

Or the odd AI in special circumstances, but some I know routinely do one or the other and in some cases, both. 

I have to think this is mainly due to convenience ( for the breeeder) and surely this cannot be good for dogs in the long run.

I couldn't post this in the breeders section because I no longer have that status but was just interested in others opinions.

I am certainly not out to knock breeders because after my experience, I hold good ones in the highest regard.

Any thoughts?

Routine Ceasars are IMO BAD.  I see nothing wrong with AI, especially as a means of introducing new lines. 

These days, being called a byb is almost a compliment.  Seems all breeders are accused of being either a BYB or a puppy farmer. 

 

P. S. There is a 3rd category "Qualzucht" (torture breeder)...reserved for those who breed for extreme and unhealthy traits.  I think it's this category that pedigree folks should be most concerned about. 

Edited February 11, 2021 by sandgrubber
P. S.

[Rebanne]

Any thought? yeah plenty

[hollee]

The only reason I mentioned AI is that I know some dogs that have never done a natural mating. I guess if there is no other way I can understand it but I think it undesirable if a stud dog is unable to perform natural matings.

 

[hollee]

5 hours ago, Rebanne said:

Any thought? yeah plenty

Are they printable????

[Rebanne]

37 minutes ago, hollee said:

Are they printable????

Mostly but as you are not a breeder I don't know why it is so important to you? It's never been important to me how my pups get here as long as it's safely. I've never had a pet buyer ask how the pup was conceived or born. Fellow breeders knew as I was always quite open with the journey. 

[Dogsfevr]

Will proudly put my hand up and say we do AI and have on 2 occasions opted for elective .
My  business ,my choice based on the factors that where more important at that moment .Factors can vary from long weekend ,size off the litter ,extreme heatwave and added risk to the bitch based on vet discussions and  weighing up the pros and cons .

C section is not a convenient cheap choice and a successful c section is based on a good vet practice. 
There are also issues that can occur with a csection that certainly doesn’t mean easy afterwards .

But elective has its place 

 

As for AI if you bring a nasty arse bitch for  a mating to my dog then you get an AI.Yes some bitches turn into moles .

 A friend had to retire there top winning bitch after a male bite her ear during mating and it flopped .

Dog was stunning,great health, asset to the gene pool but a PIA when mating and had a history off doing this .

Owner would have preferred AI had she known.

 

AI is not the end off the world .

AI is often better for the bitch stuck underneath especially if the male won’t turn ,would sooner Ai than use a breeding hitch to just get natural hold the bitch in place .

 

Matings here are done with the animals best interest not a human emotion off silliness .

Our last 2 litters where standing AI ,quick,simple and successful .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Dogsfevr

[persephone]

1 hour ago, hollee said:

I think it undesirable if a stud dog is unable to perform natural matings.

I think it highly desirable when the stud dog is older and has creaky joints but is still keen and fertile ! 

[Dogsfevr]

It often makes wonder if the same thought is placed on females who use ivf .

 

[tdierikx]

8 minutes ago, Dogsfevr said:

It often makes wonder if the same thought is placed on females who use ivf .

 

 

Pretty sure there are some who do have those thoughts with regards to humans who need some help from science to conceive... *sigh*

 

That said... IVF is no walk in the park... it's scary nasty things needing to be gone through for the poor woman involved... and bloody expensive to boot! I take my hat off to anyone going through it.

 

T.

[asal]

22 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

Routine Ceasars are IMO BAD.  I see nothing wrong with AI, especially as a means of introducing new lines. 

These days, being called a byb is almost a compliment.  Seems all breeders are accused of being either a BYB or a puppy farmer. 

 

P. S. There is a 3rd category "Qualzucht" (torture breeder)...reserved for those who breed for extreme and unhealthy traits.  I think it's this category that pedigree folks should be most concerned about. 

 

already happening in 1978 when I bought my first chihuahua.  My brother and I were total newbies, saw an add in telegraph. Went to elfreda kennels and were blown away by the amazing facilities she and her husband had built. huge shed. office. whelping area, storage area on right. on the left runs that went outside under covered area. not only bird netted even mozzie netted!

 

None of her bitches were bred from again if they needed a caesarean, unless the cause was a malpresented pup. her aim from the outset was all self whelping only.

 

She explained she loved her dogs so much. she and her husband decided why not make them their business so they could be with them every day.  Think she said she made on average $40,000 a year. no idea what that would equate to today.

 

when I showed my new pup to my friend Nancy Gate she was horrified I had bought her from a puppy farmer.

 

Yep.  we have to get rid of puppy farmers was going in 1978.

 

Although it wasn't until some time after 1980, both Nancy and Betty Stepkovitch began telling me how "we have to get rid of the backyard breeders, they are ruining the reputation of the RNSWCC."

 

Just sat there staring at them.  Then asked. "what do you think is outside your back door?  How could you say something so silly?  Are you really backing something that applies to every one of you?"   

They could not understand my meaning.    

Well we all know how well that's gone. 

 

along with how many tens of thousands less members and ankc dogs less in existence now?

 

Even as early as the day I bought Genie, and I began going to shows with Nancy. Who incidentally was quite surprised at the quality of our two puppy farm puppies. I noticed many judges were not following the Chihuahua Standard.   It had a sentence "in the case of equal quality, the more diminutive preferred"  I commented to both Nancy and Betty.   So many judges are not even bothering with the "case of equal quality"  they dont even look at anything but the "more diminutive preferred"  hence so many of Nancy and Betty's champions were so small they could only whelp by caesarean.

 

Neither saw this as a problem. well until when I began breeding Genie and saw how easily she whelped.  Phill had taught me to select the puppy with the widest pelvic bones for ease of delivery.

 

Works just as well with cattle too.

 

anyway I had already noticed my neighbour had an English bulldog that could not deliver except by cesear.  As for mothering ability. well she sure had none of that.   If she didn't keep them away from their mum and bottle feed them they would all be dead by morning.

 

I pointed out to both Betty and Nancy this is really bad practice.  any newbie who buys a daughter of these mums will die if they dont know and dont get her to a vet in time?

 

Interestingly after Pedigree dogs Exposed was released.   the RNSWCC and I suspect all branches of the ankc deleted the section "in the case of equal quality, the more diminutive preferred" from the standard. so something was achieved even if only a small gain.

 

 

I know my thinking at the time was such a pity they couldn't clean up their act before the peta mob shamed them into it.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by asal

[DogsAndTheMob]

I agree with the OP to some extent. There’s a risk of losing capabilities if there’s no selection for them. 

 

Routine use of AI doesn’t worry me; if a breed or line of dogs loses the ability to achieve natural matings, that’s an inconvenience for breeders more than a issue that affects dogs.

 

Routine use of Caesarean sections is different, because the breeder has no way of knowing whether that bitch could have delivered those puppies naturally. The day may come when that breeder or a breeder of subsequent puppies cannot access the vet when necessary. In that circumstance, what would happen to the bitch and puppies?

 

COVID has shown us that we can’t take the status quo for granted. Imagine trying to organise a Caesar during lockdown or when your vet is sick - particularly in rural and regional areas where there is a shortage of vets who provide after hours and emergency services.

[BDJ]

Interesting topic.

 

I have not had a prefix for 20plus years, so definitely not a current breeder and have no knowledge of the current % use of AI or non emergency c-sections.  It may be a non issue, or it may be an increasing situation in some breeds/lines/breeders.

 

Can completely understand many valid reasons for both (most listed above) and they have so many benefits and should never be banned.  BUT - from a purely physical, anatomical and sex-drive/behaviour perspective, if either is becoming a frequent occurrence it can have negative impacts.

 

If a stud dog is widely used and does not have natural drive (I have seen AI done with a heck of a lot more stimulation than a natural mating), and that (lack of) drive was passed on, then it will have an impact down the track.

 

If a line has several generations of c-sections, it will be difficult to tell if the bitches are easy breeders or if something has crept in to the line (eg: narrowish pelvis, low/sluggish hormone levels etc).  I remember one excellent breeder who stopped breeding from a particular line.  The bitches simply didn't have progressive labours.  They started, but never progressed to active pushing.  Initial bitch had 2 x emergency c-sections (thought the first was 'one of those things').  First daughter bred from was put to a dog from a family whose females were 'easy whelpers', yet she did the same as her mother and needed a c-section.  He took (what I believe) to be a responsible decision and desexed both bitches and the other sisters.  And they were stunning types.  He could have easily kept breeding with elective/planned c-sections (both financially and capacity) - but he made an ethical decision

 

And no - I don't see the correlation with IVF - poles apart.   I am not aware the sperm of low sex drive or sexually aggressive male would be used for 100's offspring.  

[Dogsfevr]

19 hours ago, BDJ said:

Interesting topic.

 

I have not had a prefix for 20plus years, so definitely not a current breeder and have no knowledge of the current % use of AI or non emergency c-sections.  It may be a non issue, or it may be an increasing situation in some breeds/lines/breeders.

 

Can completely understand many valid reasons for both (most listed above) and they have so many benefits and should never be banned.  BUT - from a purely physical, anatomical and sex-drive/behaviour perspective, if either is becoming a frequent occurrence it can have negative impacts.

 

If a stud dog is widely used and does not have natural drive (I have seen AI done with a heck of a lot more stimulation than a natural mating), and that (lack of) drive was passed on, then it will have an impact down the track.

 

If a line has several generations of c-sections, it will be difficult to tell if the bitches are easy breeders or if something has crept in to the line (eg: narrowish pelvis, low/sluggish hormone levels etc).  I remember one excellent breeder who stopped breeding from a particular line.  The bitches simply didn't have progressive labours.  They started, but never progressed to active pushing.  Initial bitch had 2 x emergency c-sections (thought the first was 'one of those things').  First daughter bred from was put to a dog from a family whose females were 'easy whelpers', yet she did the same as her mother and needed a c-section.  He took (what I believe) to be a responsible decision and desexed both bitches and the other sisters.  And they were stunning types.  He could have easily kept breeding with elective/planned c-sections (both financially and capacity) - but he made an ethical decision

 

And no - I don't see the correlation with IVF - poles apart.   I am not aware the sperm of low sex drive or sexually aggressive male would be used for 100's offspring.  

A good rep vet can tell if a bitch will likely struggle to birth natural .

But here’s the deal which evils would you prioritise.

 

#Bitch may not whelp natural 

 

#Bitch may not whelp natural but health clearances are stellar and just as important for the bred going forward and pet owners.

 

#Bitch will whelp natural but health clearances are average so pet owner gets a potential time bomb to love .

 

#Bitch will whelp naturally but does not represent the breed in correct nature.

 

#Use average stud dog because he’s friendly .

 

# Use a stud dog with great/clear health tests and produces great natures but is slightly nearly during matings .

 

These are the real questions breeders look at ,in the perfect world they would just get on with it .

 

The problem with these topics and people who get vocal also dont factor anything 

Some would prefer a natural whelp but who cares about other factors.

 

Luckily good breeders don’t just think that way because bringing dogs into this world happy and healthy relies on many factors  with tough choices made .

 

[BDJ]

Struth Dogsfever - to be clear I will bold and underline what I put in above ........ Can completely understand many valid reasons for both (most listed above) and they have so many benefits .....

 

I don't remember coming anywhere near stating that people must only use the dog that lives near by, or a substandard animal (dog or bitch).

 

 

[Dogsfevr]

21 minutes ago, BDJ said:

Struth Dogsfever - to be clear I will bold and underline what I put in above ........ Can completely understand many valid reasons for both (most listed above) and they have so many benefits .....

 

I don't remember coming anywhere near stating that people must only use the dog that lives near by, or a substandard animal (dog or bitch).

 

 

You used the word ethical multiple times on doing the right thing .The 

 public that read these posts suddenly jump on the band wagon off believing a little bit that people selectively post instead off giving an answer that is educational  covers many ethical choices and tough decisions on what is right,what is wrong and offers the best whole picture going forward .

Your bold bit is nothing to the rest off your post ,obviously you don’t like clarification  ,not my problem .

 

 

 

[BDJ]

I take you point on people jumping on a band wagon, and I certainly don't want that to occur.

 

I will just make one point on my final post on this subject.  I would appreciate not being mis represented.  I used the word 'ethical' once (not multiple times) and only referenced one example of an action taken to a specific situation.  And I stand by that.  

[sandgrubber]

For common, non-extreme (apart from shedding) breeds, eg Labradors, it's not hard to insist on the ability to mate naturally without compromise on health, temperament, or conformation.  Decisions are more difficult for rare breeds or breeds that have been bred for extremes that create problems for natural mating, eg British bulldogs. 

[hollee]

On 11/2/2021 at 5:12 PM, Rebanne said:

Mostly but as you are not a breeder I don't know why it is so important to you? It's never been important to me how my pups get here as long as it's safely. I've never had a pet buyer ask how the pup was conceived or born. Fellow breeders knew as I was always quite open with the journey. 

OK if I'm not a breeder you don't know why its so important to me?

I was just interested because of some things I had observed. I'm sorry if you think that I shouldnt ask questions or show an interest in things. That's alright, thanks for the replies anyway.

I don't post often anyway, I'm a nobody in the dog world, just love all my animals.

I'm suitably chastened and its no loss to anyone, I probably wouldn't post again.

[JRG]

I am sorry you feel like that;  it was am interesting discussion.

I personally do not agree with ROUTINE AI or Caesarian.  Any species or breed that relies on artificial methods to reproduce, is headed for extinction.