Why so few puppies for sale and why so expensive?

[Rococo]

Sorry, but I'm a senior and am wondering why there are so few puppies for sale and why the prices have jumped into the thousands of dollars for the few that are for sale? It wasn't so long ago that you could get a little dog for well under $500 to $1000 Actually, I can remember seeing JRT and JRT x Mini Foxy pups for sale for $150 only a few years ago. Now seniors on fixed incomes that are used to having a little dog as a companion cannot afford to have one any longer. The prices I've seen advertised are astronomical! Some dogs are upwards of $5000 - $10,000 which is a fair proportion of an average pensioner's annual income. I've had dogs all of my life and have always taken excellent care of them. I have always carried RSPCA pet insurance and give them regular veterinary care. I buy top quality food for my dogs as well. Dogs are extremely important to seniors especially if they live alone. They can be the sole source of love and companionship for some older people. 

 

I imagine that fewer dogs are being bred because of the pandemic but I don't see the pandemic being a viable reason for such a huge jump in prices. I think there is a fair amount of price gouging going on. 

 

I don't mean to offend anyone but am just wondering. 

 

Rococo. 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Rococo
mis-spelled word

[Dogsfevr]

Puppies have been in thousand bracket for many many years .

This didn’t happen this year .

Edited November 1, 2020 by Dogsfevr

[moosmum]

 

A lot of it did.

The pandemic has caused a lot of people to be home more.

People who were once too busy to consider a dog  are bored, insecure or lonely.Or want to keep their kids amused. The demand for dogs/pups has sky rocketed.

 

It won't last.  There are already a lot of re-homes coming up and there will be lot more, as well as unplanned litters. 

Sadly, being willing to pay huge prices is no guarantee of responsibility or appreciation.

 

A lot of dogs in need coming up soon.

[asal]

I know everyone was told, dont breed, we dont want people wanting a puppy just because they are stuck at home.

I have no idea where it is now. but at the time I asked.. Do our dogs know because there is a pandemic they are not allowed to die of old age or accident until its over?

 

I am getting phone calls on average three to five a week, some days that many in one day. 

And every one of them is to replace the dog they have just lost or finally getting over the loss after a year or so and yep there are no dogs to be found.

 

how how did that come about?  its not just because of the pandemic

 

the call has been out not to breed an ankc litter for decades unless you wish to replace for yourself.

nothing is more unethical or irresponsible than to breed a litter for sale as pets.

As for letting anyone have a main register pup and keep members in the ANKC?

Most of the breeders are dead end kennels, Never sell a main register pup.

Over 20 years ago I loaned one of mine to a "friend" to breed a pup with the option of a second litter if she was not happy with a pup from the first.. Sooo  she bred two litters. 7 in each litter and sold every one of them on limit register. and they were 2000 pups 20 years ago. so she pocketed $24,000 and bought a car and imported a pup instead.

I was supposed to get a pup from each litter and I did. but as she had first choice and each time she said there were two she was deciding between I had to settle for 3rd choice.   So I was pretty pissed off when I learned she had limit registered every one aside from my two 3rd choices and sold them all as pets?

 

yep there are some interesting people that are ankc "breeders" and think they are the perfection of ethical and responsible.

 

But dont worry.

 

The government is granting breeding licences to commercial puppy farms to fill the massive gap there now is between the hundreds of thousands of people who would love a pet.

 

I just find it hilarious that although no one should be allowed to be an ankc member if they are a "puppy farmer" yet if you are inspected by the rspca for compliance to the "POCTA for breeding dogs and cats" which is minimum by law you must comply with. 

What is this "POCTA"   read it and you realise, our government in NSW, who made it law, is the minimum standard for a puppy farm.

 

The difference of course is although an ankc member is actually a legal puppy farm. They dare not breed pets for joe public.  that would be unethical and irresponsible and hated by your fellow members.

 

So it is up to the real puppy farms to gear up and meet the demand. 

 

The ankc have seen this coming for years. or they would not have published this

 

http://ankc.org.au/media/6598/a-forensic-view-of-puppy-breeding-in-australiav4.pdf

Edited November 1, 2020 by asal

[Teebs]

I'm looking too and have pretty much given up for the moment. 

 

I agree a bit with above. Registered breeders need to start breeding for the pet market, otherwise byb are just going to come swooping in and take the money. 

 

I was looking at kitten prices and they have jumped to over $3500 for the breed I like. All that does is keep people who want that breed to go to a byb or find a free to good home one .

 

[tdierikx]

I know of at least 1 pet store that sells pups/kittens that increased their prices astronomically once they realised there was a higher demand for them this year.

 

Regardless of the pandemic, there has been a steady increase in the asking price for pups of all breed and mixes over the past few years... even those in rescue. I'm thinking it's mostly due to supply and demand, but the pandemic situation is seeing more people at home more often (and their children), and the demand for pups and kittens has skyrocketed of late... it only follows that some will seek to profit from that.

 

Personally, I'd rather buy a quality pup from a breeder like @asalfor a fair market price than chance the unknown background/breeding of some crossbreed possibly bred only for the current profit margin to be had right now... and that means that if I have to wait, then that is just how it is...

 

T.

[moosmum]

And there will be people who see these prices, and think hey, easy money.

 

Making it harder to breed, setting higher qualifications and financial costs, doesn't address issues of responsibility. 

It just changes the interpretation of 'responsibe' to some thing fewer are capable of, and fewer people can have any familiarity with.

 

The 1st motive of a breeder isn't going to be dogs, If  money and 'qualification' come 1st. And you have a population who are now so far from the experience they don't remember when or how these things were once their own responsibility to take or not.

 

You only get less responsibility, by removing or with holding familiarity with the subject. 

Familiarity and recognition of conditions related to the subject are essential for responsibility.The qualifications we are setting up to be recognised as a breeder (and have been called for as  owners ) only reduce familiarity and recognition of the conditions faced by breeders and owners. = less ability to respond to those.

[ish]

It’s actually been a difficult time to be a breeder also. Sure, there might be a huge market for puppies of late but it hasn’t been easy times to produce them - in Victoria at least. Travelling to specialty breeding vets has been difficult (i do understand its ‘allowed’ but it still doesn’t make it easy) travelling to interstate dogs impossible, getting dogs on flights to stud dogs or puppies to new homes on flights impossible. It was hard to get people to visit to see puppies which means the puppies get less exposure and the breeder and buyer have less opportunity to develop a relationship too. 
There’s also the huge ethical dilemma about if this year is a good time to actually produce puppies considering the world has gone mad. People are in work/home situations which aren’t typical, opportunities to socialise and train puppies pretty much became non existent in Victoria. There’s going to be a huge glut of puppies who have missed a huge important part of their development because of lockdowns, plus potential separation anxiety from the working from home situation changing 

 

Thats my perspective on the other side of the argument anyway 

[moosmum]

2 hours ago, ish said:

It’s actually been a difficult time to be a breeder also. Sure, there might be a huge market for puppies of late but it hasn’t been easy times to produce them - in Victoria at least. Travelling to specialty breeding vets has been difficult (i do understand its ‘allowed’ but it still doesn’t make it easy) travelling to interstate dogs impossible, getting dogs on flights to stud dogs or puppies to new homes on flights impossible. It was hard to get people to visit to see puppies which means the puppies get less exposure and the breeder and buyer have less opportunity to develop a relationship too. 
There’s also the huge ethical dilemma about if this year is a good time to actually produce puppies considering the world has gone mad. People are in work/home situations which aren’t typical, opportunities to socialise and train puppies pretty much became non existent in Victoria. There’s going to be a huge glut of puppies who have missed a huge important part of their development because of lockdowns, plus potential separation anxiety from the working from home situation changing 

 

Thats my perspective on the other side of the argument anyway 

 

Yep. All valid points.

But would not be having the same impact if breeding for pet markets and demands had been accepted from the start, and less push for regulation, more focus on showing people how to make it all work.If people understand the work involved and its purpose, they are less likely to over estimate their abilities to do it, or recognise where a seller has failed. 

 The socialisation aspect would be a problem, but pedigrees would hold a higher percentage of the market, contain more diversity (and meet more diverse needs for that) and accessibility.

 

It would be definitely. be more  difficult to screen buyers !

[moosmum]

Its too easy to say "This is a problem,  If we do/don't do X, we can avoid that problem. 

That doesn't tell you  how the problems come to be in the 1st place, or how to solve them.

 

 

[Rascalmyshadow]

Yes puppy prices have jumped by huge amounts this year and from my research the reason legit breeders increased their prices was because the puppy farmers did, it has been to stop people buying their pups and then selling them to make a profit.
I was very lucky to get my chi girl just as all this started, if I had waited any longer I would have ended up paying double.

I personally wouldn’t pay over $2500 for any dog.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Rascalmyshadow

[sandgrubber]

Health testing is something of a sacred cow. My reading is that,at least in gun dogs, the required annual eye checks do not contribute a lot to health, and become a serious barrier to many would be breeders who live a long way from major cities.

[asal]

trouble is so many think the dna tests are the be all and the end all of breeding sound dogs.

 

the reality is the available tests are just 0.000000001%  or even less of that guesstimate of the genes we dont want in our breeds.

 

the banning of mother to son and father to daughter eliminated the tool that has been used for thousands of years by breeders to scan the genetics of their animals and make decisions accordingly, but the ankc removed that and just about every other incentive to keep the gene pool from shrinking continually as it has since the witch hunts to eliminate "puppy farmers and backyarders" from the membership, (I asked in the 1980's and still ask? if you dont live in an apartment, then every one of you have a backyard and thus marked for elimination" )    in their bid to placate  the implacable  animal libber/rights faction who only this week finally came out on public radio their sole aim is just what my vet said is happening, they feel they are close to achieving the extinction of domestic dogs and cats in this generation.

 

When they began canvassing government to reclassify horses as companion animals I realised horses were next on the elimination agenda and yes they admitted that too in the radio interview.

 

I may seem to be an idiot, I know many have told me to "go see a doctor, your sick in the head"

 

Well. maybe something somehow enabled me to see where their agenda was heading all those decades ago that the self elected   ethical, responsibiles thought police's glasses  have blocked from their sight?

 

so my next question, is have they now realised they have been tricked into the internal destruction of the ankc all these decades?

 

If so any solution suggestions ?

 

Sadly I suspect, it would be an almost impossible ask to stop viewing everyone other than themselves as prospective puppy farmers.

 

According to even the present code of ethics, 

"10. A Member shall not breed a bitch that results in it whelping more than six times without prior veterinary certification of fitness for further breeding and without prior approval of the Board of Directors except under extenuating circumstances where application for registration of the litter may be considered by the Board of Directors."

 

So a member who breeds six litters from their bitch IS NOT IN BREECH of the Code of Ethics.  Try telling that to the thought police!

 

Yet a lady who bred six litters from her six bitches in one year.  Ie one litter from each of her bitches, was labeled a puppy farmer, numerous calls were lodged with the rspca, Fellow members of her breed club were heard openly boasting they had made the calls. They made it so distressing for her she resigned from the club, although I and other friends managed to at least talk her out of resigning from the ankc. so at least she is still a registered ankc breeder and she does still breed and new members have a change of finding a main register pup.  They cant get one from the "thought police" though.

 

This was called in my day creating the scene "for divided we fall!"

 

Looking at the stats for membership numbers over the past 30 years there has been substantial fall in relation to the population growth of this nation

 

 

http://ankc.org.au/media/9436/memberstats_to-19v2.pdf

 

 

 

That's a pretty obvious free fall towards extinction of not only the ankc but the breeds it was founded to register is it not?

 

The show scene is the newcomer to dog breeds, our breeds were not evolved for show, they were evolved for a purpose .

 

Today if you dont show, again that person is considered unethical and irresponsible?  

 

There are many reasons why some one may not show, that does not make them or their dogs inferior even though that is the automatic assumption today. again a case of "divided we fall".

 

The PETA mob have good reason to be delighted, they have proven to be  far smarter than the "ethical, responsible thought police" to date

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2020 by asal

[Pjrt]

Genetic testing is all well and good but one has to remember that it’s is also another problem in the ever diminishing available genes in a given breed. It’s a dead end road. A breed of dog by default has limited genetic material to work with to begin with, and genetic testing dismisses more and more genetic material within the bubble of genetic material within the breed.  

[asal]

All these decades of tougher laws and codes to "eliminate puppy farmers"

 

Yet, why is there not equal if not more, "education" of diet, care and maintenance of each breed instead?

 

Whatever happened to educate the person who is found their animals have not been adequately fed, wormed, parasite treated?

 

Frankly I would suspect education would be far cheaper to implement and achieve than higher fines for the uneducated?

 

Not even todays new vets have adequate diet training of our dogs for example.

recently a bitch had a litter of 7 puppies, the owner took her for a checkup and after checking she was in good health and no retained placenta's and the puppies all doing well, the vet made the comment, "Poor girl, this lot will suck the life out of her"

 

That vet was obviously unaware that adequate diet will ensure the bitch would definitely, not, have "the life sucked out of her" but gain weight right up till they were weaned?

 

We have all seen the horror shots of starving bitches with puppies hanging off them.

 

where are the equal to more shots of strong, healthy bitches with their puppies?  Both mother and puppies in the pink of health and educate members and joe public what is necessary to achieve this happy result?

 

For too long the peta mob have been given free rein and not challenged or their claims refuted

 

 

[asal]

38 minutes ago, Scratch said:

Genetic testing is all well and good but one has to remember that it’s is also another problem in the ever diminishing available genes in a given breed. It’s a dead end road. A breed of dog by default has limited genetic material to work with to begin with, and genetic testing dismisses more and more genetic material within the bubble of genetic material within the breed.  

also the limit register has thousands of excellent dna tested individuals that have just as effectively been eliminated from the gene pool 

[sandgrubber]

I don't have a big problem with genetic testing so long as they don't say carriers can't breed.  There are now so many tests on the list that few dogs have an entirely clean slate and breeders are forced to be realistic... and it's worth avoiding breeding carriers of rare but serious diseases. It's not all that expensive, and one swab can do it. The fact that the genetic testing industry is largely unregulated does bother me. 

It's annual eye exams that I find unreasonable.  In gun dogs most of what they examine for is extremely rare, except in mild forms, and many eye problems don't show up until 6 or 7 years of age.  Not everyone has a veterinary optometrist nearby.

[moosmum]

Re-homes increasing already.

Some appear to be just to take advantage of the inflated prices.

[LAGOTTO]

Now that restrictions have eased there are many people handing dogs in to rescue centres. As people return to work their commitment to the responsibility of dog ownership wanes. A friend works for the RSPCA and there are many dogs being handed over. So there might still be avenues for seniors to find the pawfect companion.

[Little Gifts]

I am on quite a few shar pei pages on FB (worldwide membership) and common posts for the past 6 months are about first time ownership issues. The ages of some of these puppies going to their homes (in the US in particular) is very concerning. That has also resulted in issues for new owners too with crying pups, pups not toilet trained, pups who haven't learnt the skills from mum they need (like aggression and biting). These people are asking very basic questions like what to feed their pup and how often to bathe them. Obviously they are coming from backyard breeders or puppy farmers as any quality breeder would provide a puppy pack with the relevant care information (plus there wouldn't be the unbelievable stories about why the pups had to go to their new homes 'early').

 

About the last month the posts have started about returning to work and how to manage their dog crying all day or toileting all through their house while they are gone. There's also been an increase in rehome call outs for young pei - changed circumstances and all that. And even though there is no selling on FB the number of people (including where I live) just casually adding photos of their new litter to attract sales is becoming very difficult to ignore. One page I am on has just had a very intense discussion about puppy photos in general because some money hungry people cannot help themselves and are ruining it for everyone. And there have been more posts about scam sales here (mainly in Vic) and OS.

 

And this is all just one breed which I don't even think is super popular or common. The next couple of years for pounds, shelters and rescue could be quite difficult.