Push to ban registration of any Cavalier King Charles that has not been MRI tested and MVD.

[asal]

https://www.change.org/p/the-kennel-club-stop-registerin-g-cavalier-king-charles-spaniel-puppies-unless-their-parents-are-mri-scanned-and-heart-tested?recruiter=789910933&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=97342230-9ecd-11e7-9a62-eb205c5da526&utm_content=fht-2222214-en-gb%3Av2

 

 

on paper sounds a great idea.

except there is one very big BUT!

 

They are wrong. no one wants to breed a dog that will develop these..............There is a catch. The MRI is only valid for when it was done, it can change. Ditto for heart testing.. Can be MVD clear this month and next year and the next. equally can be showing signs of MVD developing a month later. its very very difficult. Many are clear for their breeding lives but it kicks in at 6 or 7. best case is Jack. he was clear all his life and lived to 16...His sons and daughters averaged 14 years, but as they were bred to other lines their puppies lives got shorter and shorter......The last two developed MVD at 7, one dying two month later, her half sister now 8 although on medication though.............. as I see it the only chance to actually breed for longer sound lives is not use any male under 8 years. Take plenty of frozen semen and dont use it until hes proven by living 11 years or more free of both conditions. THAT is the only way to breed it out sadly. For both the boys and the girls will be past breeding age before you know who will or will not be free of either or both... sadly That is the reality

 

Although if we are really serious then it can be done, by only using frozen semen from males that have passed the parameters I explained

 

Cant do it for the bitches or end of the breed.  BUT by using generations of proven clear long lived males should only take three or four generations... six ideally.............12 if you want a geneticist happy.

 

I do know this is what it takes.

decades ago discovered a lethal gene in my show stock, my best friends brother is a geneticist... laid me down a plan to eliminate it by only using proven clear males.

same scene with the girls would be too old to breed if they were kept until proven clear.

 

in my case it only took six generations to never come up with a carrier male............ but Glen said 12 is the ideal.

 

This is how the old time breeders isolated and eliminated in the hundreds of years before dna tests......in the case of MVD and Syringamyelia there is no DNA test... They are relying on MRI's to show if the condition is developing in the skull.........In the case of MVD... heart checks until dog either dies of old age or the valves start to leak.

 

whichever occur's first.

 

There is a way...

 

BUT its going to take a lot of planning and cooperation between ALL who love the breed.

 

These days anyone who decided to try it and kept the couple of hundred dogs that it would require would be hounded out of the registry as a puppy farmer anyway..

 

no chance of the large kennels which once existed and created or continued so many breeds in the past.

 

 

Id love to give it a try, but too old now

 

Good luck folks

 

As Glen told me, There's your blueprint.

keep to it and you will succeed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by asal

[Pjrt]

MVD aside....

 

I’ve actually told several people that the first thing I’d do if I came into enough money is set up some sort of fund to ensure that every single (registered) breeding CKCS is MRI tested for SM!! 

in my 33 yrs of handling dogs, ive come to understand that SM is a condition of degrees. A dog doesn’t have to be displaying overt distressing symptoms to be suffering the condition. I would estimate that at least 8 out of 10 of the CKCS  I’ve known have SM. Very strange and vague symptoms to incessant scratching, screaming, even hallucinations. 
I don’t have vested interest in the breed but I’d love to have the money to help prove that this delightful breed is riddled with SM, and work on breeding away from it. 
Ive even had breeders and owners tell me straight to my face that their dogs are not affected......despite the fact that none of these dogs have had MRI. The absence of symptoms does not mean the dog does not have the condition. And 
 

[asal]

and sadly mri clear parents do not guarantee mri clear babies as a friend discovered.

 

wish both could be cleared from these lovely dogs.

I used to breed them but the stress once I bred my first affected pup and the reality that is a minefield with few tools to work with

to identify those who carry either conditions

, was too much to deal with

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by asal

[Dogsfevr]

But this is a major problem in many fields where science is progressing doesnt mean a simple solution to solve an issue .

Just like thyroid testing dogs ,most test at 15 months come back clear ,dog may not be clear at 5 years .

The other major factor is if looking from an Australian point of view in my own state at the vet teaching school many years ago they did a public talk on irresponsible breeders who dont BAER test.
This idiot went on and on to joe public .You could hear the muffled comments .
They asked for question time & i listened to some of the very unpleasant accusations based on this vet words & ofcourse the uneducated emotions of the public so i raised my hand .

Regarding BAER testing your discussing
Yes
Have you repaired your machine yet ,have you trained a new person to be able to use the machine ?
Vet looked at me .
Not a hard question to answer but you have bagged out breeders who dont BAER test ( at that time) .
I have been waiting 2 years for your machine to be fixed,it took 8 months to get an actual answer that has had various reasons from machine breaking down to the reader retired & no one was ever trained to use it & teach future vets .
I have all this in email .
Due to this i actually had to fly my dog to Melbourne to be BAER tested but no breeder can fly a whole litter of puppies to the East to be done .
So just wanting to know if the teaching school has sorted there excuse out yet on this supposedly very important matter your discussing but forgot to mention your the only place that offers it .
That vet was so embarrassed & i was so peeved off but this struggle is real in many health testing areas they want .
Not all states have the facilities too do it ,for some testing clubs band together to do a weekend clinic but its open to limited numbers .
I know in WA for example there is no heart specialist to do the full heart certificates ,they had to cancel this years clinic due to covid & then hope they can arrange one next year so that is potentially 2 years of no important testing because the top vet schools or specialists centres dont have this option .
It only been the last couple of years a MRI machine has been available for the above testing otherwise you had to fly breeding stock to the East & it becomes a very very expensive exercise .
 

[asal]

well remember a WA breeder told two of her pups done with a BAER com machine had imperfect hearing.

 

had a kennel disaster and these two were the last left.

 

decided to take a risk and bred them together.... discovered access to a full BAER machine for testing, all the litter perfect, had the parents tested and they too had perfect hearing.

 

the cheaper machines are not reliable.

 

Then there is the fact as my vet noted.... so much concentration on PRA and Pll dna testing... my vet noted that even pra c dogs can die of old age before any vision loss has occurred........ friends boy is 8 and still has perfect vision although dna profiled C.

[Dogsfevr]

4 hours ago, asal said:

well remember a WA breeder told two of her pups done with a BAER com machine had imperfect hearing.

 

had a kennel disaster and these two were the last left.

 

decided to take a risk and bred them together.... discovered access to a full BAER machine for testing, all the litter perfect, had the parents tested and they too had perfect hearing.

 

the cheaper machines are not reliable.

 

Then there is the fact as my vet noted.... so much concentration on PRA and Pll dna testing... my vet noted that even pra c dogs can die of old age before any vision loss has occurred........ friends boy is 8 and still has perfect vision although dna profiled C.

I own a breed where the form off PRA is old age so will either be dead before clinical signs or already going blind with cataracts .

He is a carrier nearly 13 years .

Most breeders will prioritise hips/Elbow scores over an affected status of this PRA as the hips/elbows will affect them more .

 

DNA is useful but many don t understand  the pros/cons  in the results and within breeds of varying kinds 

[sandgrubber]

4 hours ago, Dogsfevr said:

I own a breed where the form off PRA is old age so will either be dead before clinical signs or already going blind with cataracts .

He is a carrier nearly 13 years .

Most breeders will prioritise hips/Elbow scores over an affected status of this PRA as the hips/elbows will affect them more .

 

DNA is useful but many don t understand  the pros/cons  in the results and within breeds of varying kinds 

Hip/elbow tests can be iffy as well.  I dropped out of breeding in large part because the lovely girl I kept from my last litter had a bad score on one hip.  She's now 10 1/2 and has no sign of arthritis.  She also failed the vet examination eye test... No sight problems either.  

[Dogsfevr]

10 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

Hip/elbow tests can be iffy as well.  I dropped out of breeding in large part because the lovely girl I kept from my last litter had a bad score on one hip.  She's now 10 1/2 and has no sign of arthritis.  She also failed the vet examination eye test... No sight problems either.  

Yeah i know that and??

 

[asal]

must be doubly galling for the thousands spent on testing to learn its been proven now HD is highly dependant on diet and weight not genetics.

 

that research was decades behind the assumption it was solely genetic in origin.

 

if the diet and weight research had been done decades earlier so many dogs would have escaped getting it.

 

I know us oldies did wonder how this "gene" suddenly surfaced en mass with the emergance of manufactured dog food.

 

until then everyone's dogs were fed meat and kitchen scraps,  the only "dog food" in the pet shops was tinned meat, and a selection of dog  biscuits, hard as.

Think they were baked wheat bran, I know my little brother liked them better than his teething rusks

 

my friends PRA C boy is now 11 and his vet check this week, both eyes fine

 

 

Edited June 19, 2020 by asal