The Cost of Puppies

[sandgrubber]

19 hours ago, The Spotted Devil said:

Back to the original question, last litter of 7....before I had a pup on the ground, I would have easily spent $2K on health testing, travel to meet several potential stud dogs, update puppy & whelping supplies etc and $2K stud fee, $2K on a caesarean (surprise to vet and myself - 2 pups trying to get out at the same time). 10 days later we had another bit of bad luck with Ginny coming down with gangrenous mastitis (day after a thorough vet check) which can be deadly - easily another $2K with multiple vet visits, extended multiple ABs and twice daily cleaning and bandaging. Not to mention time off work caring for her and the pups 24/7 - slept next to the whelping box for 4 weeks. Add in food, vaccinations, microchips, puppy packs and that’s another $2K. I kept one pup so that doesn’t leave much wriggle room in terms of expenses. That goes in no way to covering the time and effort I put into my dogs, puppies and puppy buyers. For life. I make no apologies for charging $2K/pup and will increase it next litter.apologize for changing what the market will bare, especially in a market that is increasingly dominated by profit seeking. 

Why apologize for changing market prices?

Better luck with the next litter. If I had had such bad problems with every litter I would have quit after one or two.  I had to do Cesars < 20% of the time.  My average litter was 9.  I only had bad mastitis once.  I decided on the stud a year or so before breeding and that only required going to a few shows.  But there were many many hours of unpaid work, the cost of living in a kennel zone, fencing costs, and costs for maintaining the bitch, etc..  

 

 

 

 

[The Spotted Devil]

On 08/06/2020 at 9:22 AM, sandgrubber said:

Why apologize for changing market prices?

Better luck with the next litter. If I had had such bad problems with every litter I would have quit after one or two.  I had to do Cesars < 20% of the time.  My average litter was 9.  I only had bad mastitis once.  I decided on the stud a year or so before breeding and that only required going to a few shows.  But there were many many hours of unpaid work, the cost of living in a kennel zone, fencing costs, and costs for maintaining the bitch, etc..  

 

 

 

 

I’m not apologising but you did mention $650. I’m not responding to the market, but the basic costs of raising a litter. I could sell my pups 10 x over at more than the asking price (no exaggeration) but I choose not to. They are perfect for me but not for everyone. I compete in dog sports and health test where many do not and I am there for the life of the pup. I dremelled the nails of one of my 3 yo “pups” yesterday. Last weekend I introduced a baby to puppy agility skills and did his nails too. The heritage of the breed and welfare of my pups is everything. 
 

Vet said both incidences were completely bad luck. Extremely unusual as my girl is a super fit, beautifully put together Working Springer. First 2 litters (different bitch) were 4 surviving - again just bad luck - so not exactly potential for a gold mine. I work (in a demanding job) so I can afford to breed.
 

A good repro vet, eye specialist, general vet and cancer specialist are expensive but priceless.

Edited June 9, 2020 by The Spotted Devil

[sandgrubber]

11 hours ago, The Spotted Devil said:

I’m not apologising but you did mention $650. I’m not responding to the market, but the basic costs of raising a litter. I could sell my pups 10 x over at more than the asking price (no exaggeration) but I choose not to. They are perfect for me but not for everyone. I compete in dog sports and health test where many do not and I am there for the life of the pup. I dremelled the nails of one of my 3 yo “pups” yesterday. Last weekend I introduced a baby to puppy agility skills and did his nails too. The heritage of the breed and welfare of my pups is everything. 
 

Vet said both incidences were completely bad luck. Extremely unusual as my girl is a super fit, beautifully put together Working Springer. First 2 litters (different bitch) were 4 surviving - again just bad luck - so not exactly potential for a gold mine. I work (in a demanding job) so I can afford to breed.
 

A good repro vet, eye specialist, general vet and cancer specialist are expensive but priceless.

$650 was 1992.  The dog landscape has changed greatly since then.

 

Sorry. I didn't say it well. My point is that the exercise of linking price to cost is full of arbitrary decisions, unless you are treating puppy selling as a business.  From the various responses here I see that the decline of 'hobby' breeding and rise of for profit dog businesses has resulted in increasing prices, at least in Australia.  (Less so in many other countries).  Against that backdrop, hobby breeders can and should raise prices. 

 

Your many posts show you come from a perspective of loving dogs and dog sport.  In that model, breeding is a part of devotion to a hobby which allows you to replace your own dogs as they age and share some quality-for-purpose dogs with people who share your enthusiasm.  Meanwhile it partially offsets the costs of the hobby. 

 

Long ago I got a masters degree in agricultural economics. From that perspective, there's no need to justify puppy prices in terms of costs when you are providing a superior 'product' at a lower price than other segments of the market. Citing cost from an atypically expensive litter is unnecessary, unless you're dealing with the ATO.  

 

[suziwong66]

On 07/06/2020 at 1:17 PM, The Spotted Devil said:

I make no apologies for charging $2K/pup and will increase it next litter.

TBH i think you’re under pricing.

 

I paid $3000 for Soda (black lab) this year. Excellent breeding paired with excellent puppy raising of a working dog line.

 

 

 

 

[Lea lea]

Hi All - sorry to jump on this thread (new to this forum so not sure if I’m doing the right thing) BUT I’ve always wanted a staffy - hubby has finally given the green light BUT all the breeders I’ve been watching for years don’t have litters atm!
 

Hubby found someone on Facebook and going to put a deposit down on Sunday ($500) I don’t feel comfortable as I haven’t followed this breeder and am worried!

 

The pup is $2,500 and they don’t do puppy packs but they will do all vet checks worming vaccinations and microchip! I checked they are registered! 
 

Can anyone tell me if there is anything else I should ask before paying deposit! I am going to visit them in person so I can see the pup and parents! 
 

am I being over the top LOL - I’ve just wanted a staffy for YEARS so I want to get it right! Hubby also said we can eventually breed - again this worries me as I want to do the right thing! 
 

Any advice most welcome - thanks 

[asal]

I'ts sad that so many feel they have to "check the breeder is ethical" before they will even think about looking at getting a puppy from them, as you just said, the breeder of your pup is as you said " I checked they are registered! "

 

Lady whose puppies I chip is not happy with the attitude of many of the people who come to see a pup,  they look at her with suspicion, check her premises, her home, make her feel very judged, before they decide to buy a pup.    I said to her,   "Ever get the feeling your viewed as a prostitute?  They want their pup, but despise you as the supplier of what they want?"

 

She looked at me in surprise and said,   "YES! you nailed it.    I hate this atmosphere of today, I've been a member for 41 years and it was never like this.  Im thinking of giving up its no longer a pleasure to show off my puppies to so many people who are not those I already know  anymore..

 

I never forget the lady who with her newly purchased puppy, hugged to her chest, ask me "how do you live with yourself? Forcing your furchild to get pregnant and then selling your furgrandchild? "

 Frankly who wants to deal with such people?

 

The deamonisation of ANKC members in the belief, so many are unethical and irresponsible, is pretty damming of how low the opinion and trust in anyone who is an ANKC member has sunk over the decades since the call to eliminate from our ranks anyone accused of being a backyard breeder and or puppy farmer,  that it has come to this is so sad.

 

If anyone bothered to compile the statistics of how many actual members are targeted by the rspca in comparison to how many tens of thousands of members............(Then there is the fact a large percentage of the targets are innocent of the charges anyway).

 

I sure know that first hand. I was targeted in 1999 and its only taken 18 years before dogzonline finally  allowed a thread like "RSPCA in the news

Started by Two Best Dogs!, December 21, 2018"  was permitted and the writer not banned from posting for 12 months with the codicil when allowed back that they must never mention that name.

 

It's taken that long to be recognised that place is not the paragon of virtue it makes itself out to be.  Their targets are still assumed to be guilty until proven innocent though.  Unfortunately a significant number still believe any target had to be guilty. Doubly galling to see George Pell innocent until proven guilty and now slate wiped clean, not because hes proven innocent but out on a technicality?

 

Even now 18 years later I still have to endure the much loved "where there's smoke there's fire" tag if I talk about what happened to my poor dog Stringy, yet all he had was blue gene alopecia and their stupid inspector and even their stupid vet not only had never heard of it, but refused to listen to anyone (the dogs vet, the Dogs NSW Liaison officer or the Chihuahua club either) in their zeal to charge me with neglect?

Yet when they finally surrendered him back to me, 13 days later. (he was lucky, today they dont ) and he survived the Pneumonia, torn trachea, dehydration and spent the night on a drip and antibiotics to save him.  My vet wanted me to sue them for aggravated cruelty, but there was no way I could have afforded the court costs.

 

Even the enquiry into the RSPCA revealed a large number of targets although not guilty of the charges plead guilty because they have to make a choice.  Fight and lose everything, or plead guilty and at least still have a home to go back too.

The mental damage to them is permanent regardless of which choice they make.

 

Perhaps remember, to become an ANKC member the person who bred your pup did so to continue the heritage of the breeders before who created the dogs they are lucky to have.

 

Today its easier to be a puppy farmer and not be an ANKC member with all the hoops and suspicion to deal with AND they charge more from what the websites quote.

 

Get your  pup and have a wonderful life with him/her.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by asal

[sheena]

12 hours ago, Lea lea said:

Hi All - sorry to jump on this thread (new to this forum so not sure if I’m doing the right thing) BUT I’ve always wanted a staffy - hubby has finally given the green light BUT all the breeders I’ve been watching for years don’t have litters atm!
 

Hubby found someone on Facebook and going to put a deposit down on Sunday ($500) I don’t feel comfortable as I haven’t followed this breeder and am worried!

 

The pup is $2,500 and they don’t do puppy packs but they will do all vet checks worming vaccinations and microchip! I checked they are registered! 
 

Can anyone tell me if there is anything else I should ask before paying deposit! I am going to visit them in person so I can see the pup and parents! 
 

am I being over the top LOL - I’ve just wanted a staffy for YEARS so I want to get it right! Hubby also said we can eventually breed - again this worries me as I want to do the right thing! 
 

Any advice most welcome - thanks 

If you are going to breed, then you need to get a pup on Mains Register & you need to know what you are doing.  Has the breeder of your puppy done all the genetic tests on the parents?  What colour are the parents??  For if they are both Blue then run a mile.  Breeding is much more than just sticking two dogs together and hoping for the best.  The rescue centres are full of dogs that have been bred by people who have no idea what they breeding.  Having said that, good on you for coming on here & asking for advice.  I am sure someone who knows more about staffies (I know very little, except to be wary of blue puppies & blue matings) will come on here & offer you some advice.

[JulesP]

I was a bit surprised when I heard what puppies were going for these days. That is the sort of money I used to spend on horses. But that is mainly because of the length of time that has passed since I purchased a puppy (10+ years). From my first border collies to the second generation was 15 years and the price had doubled then, they have pretty much doubled again in the same time frame. So not that bad? I am more concerned about actually getting a puppy when I want one. 

[Rebanne]

I would be wary of a blue staffy that has two blue parents. The health problems that have been posted here are numerous. Of course there may be nothing wrong with your pup but it is a gamble but so are most things I'd be looking at a state clubs site and see what health tests are recommended for the breed and then check that the parents of the litter have had such tests and their results. I would also expect to get copies of these when you pick up the pup. I've never done puppy packs so I wouldn't hold that against any breeder but I also never took deposits. Make sure you get a receipt and a full description of which pup is yours and also what happens if either party change their mind or pup is no longer suitable for sale. I think the full price is reasonable. As for future breeding then I suggest you show your dog and see if it meets the standard of the breed and get all health tests done. You and hubby will need to be members of DogsSA and pup needs full rego papers. Also be prepared to lose your bitch ( if that's what you are getting ) during whelping etc. It's not always plain sailing. Keep in mind that there are a multitude of staffies and crosses and while you might do the right thing will your potential puppy buyers? Lots for you to think about. Good luck.

[sandgrubber]

15 hours ago, Lea lea said:

Can anyone tell me if there is anything else I should ask before paying deposit! I am going to visit them in person so I can see the pup and parents! 
 

Mention that you might be interested in breeding.  Many people sell on limited registration, which means if you do breed, you will not be able to register the puppies as pedigree dogs.  Btw, you said the breeder was registered... you do mean with the state Canine Association? Some people say they're registered and they just mean registered with the Council. I think there are registrations for commercial breeders that have nothing to do with pedigrees as well.  I think there are some other registries for bull breeds as well.  

Another caution.  FB prohibits animal sales. 

One last thing.  I'm not a staffy person.  Most breeds have common health problems and tests that are suggested to guard against them.  Read up on these and ask the breeder what they do to select for healthy puppies. I'm skeptical about the value of some tests... but I would be very skeptical of a breeder who hasn't put some thought into what tests are important for their breed. 

 

[asal]

On 26/06/2020 at 12:15 PM, Rebanne said:

I would be wary of a blue staffy that has two blue parents. The health problems that have been posted here are numerous. Of course there may be nothing wrong with your pup but it is a gamble but so are most things I'd be looking at a state clubs site and see what health tests are recommended for the breed and then check that the parents of the litter have had such tests and their results. I would also expect to get copies of these when you pick up the pup. I've never done puppy packs so I wouldn't hold that against any breeder but I also never took deposits. Make sure you get a receipt and a full description of which pup is yours and also what happens if either party change their mind or pup is no longer suitable for sale. I think the full price is reasonable. As for future breeding then I suggest you show your dog and see if it meets the standard of the breed and get all health tests done. You and hubby will need to be members of DogsSA and pup needs full rego papers. Also be prepared to lose your bitch ( if that's what you are getting ) during whelping etc. It's not always plain sailing. Keep in mind that there are a multitude of staffies and crosses and while you might do the right thing will your potential puppy buyers? Lots for you to think about. Good luck.

if both parents are blue and neither has blue gene alopecia chances are the  pups may not either.

 

a blue pup from other colour parents still has inherited a blue gene from both parents so despite the assumption that using non blue parents is somehow superior to blue to blue is a furphy, a blue pup has two blue genes, regardless of what colour are its parents, exactly the same as a pup born of two blue parents.

 

I've seen non blue staffies with alopecia anyway? so in some lines it is occurring despite them not being blue?

 

I remember my vet commenting when he sees such dogs nine times out of ten when he names the breeder he has seen the most displaying this problem that's where it came from. So some lines have it regardless of colour.

 

I know many friends do believe to put blue to blue or chocolate to chocolate will weakness the puppies in every generation?

 

Blue and chocolate are a recessive gene, it takes two to be able to express,  it does not accumulate, two chocolate parents can not give their pups four or three copies of the chocolate dilution, they can only contribute one each, exactly the same as to other colour parents that carry the dilution but cannot display it.

 

I found it was great for me, could get outstanding pups from friends who firmly believed either colour was a sign of weakness.

 

Gave up trying to explain genetics of them and how it works.

 

remarkable how so many believe either one means the resulting puppy is automatically inferior to its other colour siblings. as if the expression of that colour some how changes its type and conformation for the worst?

 

In the chihuahua standard it even states, "

Eyes:

Large, round, but not protruding; set well apart; centre of eye is on a plane with lowest point of ear and base of stop; dark or ruby. Light eyes in light colours permissible." 

 

Yet, one of my friends believed unless a dog had a black nose it should never be placed at a show..... no ruby eyed dog can have a black nose, it will be either, chocolate, blue or liver.  

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by asal

[juice]

Find out who they are registered with , council means nothing it’s like you being registered to pay your rates . 

Unless it has pedigree papers it could be a crossbreed , there’s no proof . 

Why do you want to breed ? Pounds are full of Staffies , are you going to take back any pups owners decide down the track they don’t want ? 

 

[Daisys Mum]

My housemate wants to get a Siberian Husky... he had one and she passed away at 12 years of age of liver failure, at the time he said he would never own another dog... That was 13 years ago and it’s only now he has been making plans on buying another one.

We have looked around and yes prices have tripled since he bought her but that’s to be expected.. so now he knows he is going to be saving up if he wants to get one.

[sandgrubber]

11 hours ago, Sashas Mum said:

My housemate wants to get a Siberian Husky... he had one and she passed away at 12 years of age of liver failure, at the time he said he would never own another dog... That was 13 years ago and it’s only now he has been making plans on buying another one.

We have looked around and yes prices have tripled since he bought her but that’s to be expected.. so now he knows he is going to be saving up if he wants to get one.

Also try rescue groups.  Sibes are a breed that people buy with romantic / cosmetic ideas, but no clue about need for fencing, exercise, etc.  Often they find they can't manage and end up rehoming. 

[Daisys Mum]

5 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

Also try rescue groups.  Sibes are a breed that people buy with romantic / cosmetic ideas, but no clue about need for fencing, exercise, etc.  Often they find they can't manage and end up rehoming. 

Thanks for the info  

I think he is wanting a puppy... his last Husky was 18 months old rehomed  from a breeder so he has never had a puppy of his own before.

[Dogsfevr]

On 25/06/2020 at 7:41 PM, Lea lea said:

Hi All - sorry to jump on this thread (new to this forum so not sure if I’m doing the right thing) BUT I’ve always wanted a staffy - hubby has finally given the green light BUT all the breeders I’ve been watching for years don’t have litters atm!
 

Hubby found someone on Facebook and going to put a deposit down on Sunday ($500) I don’t feel comfortable as I haven’t followed this breeder and am worried!

 

The pup is $2,500 and they don’t do puppy packs but they will do all vet checks worming vaccinations and microchip! I checked they are registered! 
 

Can anyone tell me if there is anything else I should ask before paying deposit! I am going to visit them in person so I can see the pup and parents! 
 

am I being over the top LOL - I’ve just wanted a staffy for YEARS so I want to get it right! Hubby also said we can eventually breed - again this worries me as I want to do the right thing! 
 

Any advice most welcome - thanks 

Many breeders dont do puppy packs that is no big deal .Puppy packs can consist of what the food brand they feed supplies to what owners put together themselves but this doesn't factor as to whether the breeder is good,bad or in between & wouldn't even be a query .

So i guess the questions you need to ask is if you plan to breed what kind off breeder do you want to be ??
Your planning to ask questions off this breeder so keep in mind if you plan to breed a pet owner will expect you to share your knowledge or just send them off with a pup & see you later .
Have you read the breed standard to understand the breed??Will this puppy if you plan to breed tick those boxes??
Have you researched the health conditions that Staffies should be tested for (which should have already been done if planning to hand over money no questions asked).

If you plan to breed with this colour why and how would you go about breeding that colour .
Who are they registered with .There are 4 registries in Australia that you should understand what that means . There  is breeder permitted by the council  which is registered but dog comes with no pedigree.
Keep in mind breeding in future years will not be like it is now .

If you are seriously planning to breed then you seriously need to do more research.

Learn about the breed,learn about health testing,breed standard,learn what health results mean in breeding .

If your puppy is a carrier of any issue what you need to breed it to and why .

 

If you want to do it right you need to make yourself a smart breeder 
 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Dogsfevr

[cannibalgoldfish]

Prices go up. 20 years ago I paid $140 a week rent for a 3 bedroom house. Now in the exact same area I'll have to pay between $250-450 for the same. It sucks, but it's life. 

[sandgrubber]

On 6/26/2020 at 1:08 PM, JulesP said:

I was a bit surprised when I heard what puppies were going for these days. That is the sort of money I used to spend on horses. But that is mainly because of the length of time that has passed since I purchased a puppy (10+ years). From my first border collies to the second generation was 15 years and the price had doubled then, they have pretty much doubled again in the same time frame. So not that bad? I am more concerned about actually getting a puppy when I want one. 

These days it's getting harder to get a puppy when you want one, and the lure of buying from a non-ANCK breeder is rising. 

[Dogsfevr]

Health testing is not cheap anymore .

Health testing advances and its expected to be done .

 

 

There is no doubt some charge crazy prices but people pay those prices .

In the good old days people picked up a phone ,found there breeder/s and waited.

 

Now people shop with  the “click n collect” mentality ,no questions asked and often claim they didn’t know or whinge they where ripped off etc etc.

We have been breeders since 84.

We don’t have litters yearly and never will,we don’t have a yard full off breeding bitches and where not collectors and don’t breed the guts out of our girls .

We absolutely breed when we want to for ourselves .

Our breed has become popular ,prices have sky rocketed to stupid prices that can’t be justified but the market is there and it is sad that some just view there girls as money makers breed them then move them on for the next batch off breeding girls to move in.

 

So at the end of the day there is a breeder for everyone we have no intention to join our fellow breeders in raising prices to make money .

 

Due to Covid the need for a pup is ASAP .

We have seen some breeders raise there prices by near $2000 during this time .
 

Many breeders are giving up ,New rules ,new requirements and for many just over dealing with the modern day attitude of I want now people .

 

The good old days was awesome and is still there in a small way .

 

 

[asal]

The trouble is, people who "don't have litters yearly"

And only "breed when we want to for ourselves "

Contribute little to nothing to the continuation of the ANKC into the future, in income, genetics or new members joining.

 

The apparent assumption from your words that any who don't do as you are.

"Breed the guts out"

"View their girls as money" "move them on for the next batch"

Is pretty nasty , no matter what angle. 

 

You have the right to do whatever you want. 

 

But to insinuate any who are different to your parameter, are less ethical or responsible than your decision for yourself is pretty unethical and denial of their rights to make their own decisions. 

 

Particularly the people who actually breed regularly and don't desex every puppy AND sell on main register are the only way the ANKC's can survive, the gene pool cease shrinking along with memberships growing in line with the population of Australia 

 

So wrap yourself in your cloak of piousness, certainly.

But you and your group will contribute little or nothing to the breed's or future of the ANKC.

 

The ANKC is to record pedigrees AND encourage new members,  Sadly been precious little of either each proceeding years since the us and them mentality arrived in the membership.