Adolescent dog throwing tantrums

[sheena]

He has always done it ever since he was a pup, but it is getting worse.  12 month old border collie.  If he doesn't want to go or do something he just lies down, if we try to pick him up, he rolls over onto his back.  Tonight was his first night at agility training & didn't want to get in the car to come home.  When we tried to take hold of him, to pick him up he almost bit us.  I have always had border collies, but this is a first for me & I find the only way I can get a response from him is to raise my voice & growl.  Roast chicken doesn't work.  He thinks everything is out to trick him. He is still entire, so I am hoping that when he loses his rocks he might get better.  I love him to bits, by the way.  He is super intelligent, super affectionate & super, super naughty.

[DogsAndTheMob]

I haven’t encountered this behaviour but my general approach to unwanted behaviours is “this will not profit you!” My response would be to quickly tether the dog to a tie-out or something nearby, then walk away and look busy nearby until the dog is on his feet again. Remembering that any emotional response could be a “win” for your dog (or, alternatively, increase any stress component of the behaviour), keep your response as low-key as possible.

Edited March 2, 2020 by DogsAndTheMob

[sheena]

Thanks @DogsAndTheMob I hadn't thought of that.  I am going to do heaps of training, maybe even try LAT with him to try & get him out of, at least the tanti he throws when I want him to go in the car. It is not a good look when I have to get tough with him, especially seeing I am the instructor at the Agility class LOL

Edited March 2, 2020 by sheena

[Tassie]

@sheena   a few thoughts occurred to me.   Have you trained the collar grab game with him?  If not, it's definitely one I'd be doing .. easy to train up at home in quiet times with minimal distractions, and then build up.   Once the collar grab becomes sort of second nature, it becomes a useful reminder, particularly with a quiet verbal . that you are actually driving the bus .. not him.   I would also be looking at things like … where is he and what is he doing when you're busy with other people.  Mine are in the car at dog club when I'm instructing.   They both have huge value for the crates in the car, and always get treats for getting in.  So I'd be doing a fair bit of get him out of the car (with a release word) do a bit of work of some kind, and then hop it up in the car, reward .. do something else … then rinse and repeat … so he's in and out of the car several times over the time.

So the value is both in the car and out of the car .. 

I get the verbal tantrums from the crazy one when I'm running Rory, or when one of her favourite fast dogs is running .. and she will bark at me in frustration if she's getting things wrong  (cos it's my fault .. which of course it usually is). but if she doesn't settle fairly quickly she loses the chance to work .. back in the crate or car or house, depending on where we are.

It'll take a while if he's been rehearsing this sort of thing for a while (and to be fair, he would have had a rather turbulent time when you had all those fires and then floods), but ask the questions .. who's driving the bus, where's the value, and what do I want to see instead .. then limit the opportunities for him to practise what you don't want to see, and plan to practise and do a lot of rewarding for what you do want, and make sure he understands the response cost of doing what you don't want to see.

And I'm still working on my little cray cray girl .. who will be 3 next week ..but it is improving. 

[DogsAndTheMob]

I agree with Tassie. Also, wherever there's a potential link between a desired behaviour and an aversive (e.g. Recalling > stopping off-lead play: jumping in the car > leaving the fun place), make sure that most of the time the desired behaviour is followed by more fun.

So you might ask him to jump in the car, then do a spin or puppy push-ups or stay while you walk around the car before you give him permission to leave the car again. Depending on the set up, you might even make jumping into the car part of the agility sequence - like a pause table.

Edited to add: I also have a crazy girl, but at three years old she's still got time to grow up sooner than my first BC, who was 16 before he outgrew his crazy behaviour. The crazy ones are the most fun to train.

Edited March 3, 2020 by DogsAndTheMob

[sheena]

@Tassie yes I have taught the collar grab & he is OK with me taking his collar, providing he is not considering a tanti.  Then he will put his ears back & give me the eye, as if to say I dare you.  So far it has all been bluff till last night at agility where he tried to go through with his threat.

@DogsAndTheMob  good advice, also nice to know he might grow out of it in a couple of years time LOL & yes I agree, the crazy ones are the most fun to train.  They certainly teach us a lot & they are all different...we just have to deal with it.  

I played a bit of LAT with him today with the car & actually got him reaching up into the seat to get the treats.  But when I tried to put him back in his yard (I had him on lead) he lay down under the first shady tree & wouldn't move.  I moved back towards the garage & he got up only to drop again when he knew I was heading to the gate.  I walked away & started playing with an agility jump.  He got up & came over, so I rewarded him by allowing him to take the jump.  Next was the gate & down he went again.  So I tied him to the fence & shut him outside the gate & went & played with the other dog, handing out bones.  Of course he then wanted to come through, I let him in the gate & asked for a sit before he got his bone. It really is a mind game 

[Tassie]

It sure is a mind game @sheena .  They say we get the dogs we need … not sure what I did to need my little BSC (Bat Shit Crazy) - but she's certainly making me improve my skills as a trainer.  My dear Kirra who was naughty enough even as an old dog had got me fairly well trained, and she was like a comfortable pair of slippers ..maybe the odd hole here and there ,,,, but comfy.  I swear she organised Pippa for me .. I can hear her saying .. call yourself a dog trainer .. try this one for size!     My Rory at almost 11 and a half, is just about perfect now, but that took a while with him too.

 

@sheena  they sound like good ideas …. from my experience it will take a while for the penny to drop.   I had situations with Pippa where we should nick off up the hill towards the back of the place if she didn't think it was time to come in when I thought it was.  I could usually get her back down by playing frisbee or some jumping with Rory,   and then if it was frisbee, I'd play with her too .. soft nylon cloth frisbee I can tug with, and then tug and race with her inside.   Then I could just gauge when she was about ready to come in, and cue race ya and with a treat or toy, race her inside, then do a treat scatter inside.    It's just the last couple of weeks that she is now deciding for herself to head inside when we've had enough play or training.   She will sometimes head up the back, but I can usually get her back or get her to come to a hand touch then have her hold Reinforcement Zone all the way in for a scatter.  

 

I was thinking that to prevent him doing the lie on the ground thing, maybe a nice long tuggy that you can tug him back and forth with (still on lead) and then play some more tug in the yard, and then maybe a treat scatter.

 

Sounds like you're definitely on the way to having a successful plan.

 

 

 

[sheena]

@TassieI just did another session with him with the car.  This time I actually got him to jump into the car, rewarding with a big party of treats, then telling him to jump out.  Rinse & repeat a few times & he didn't throw a tanti on our way back to the gate as I let him do a few jumps on the way back.  One good thing about him dropping to the ground when he is excited, is that I am working on a running drop.  We certainly have to deal with the dog in front of us & I love him to bits.  I took him to a frisbee seminar on the weekend but we were mainly just tugging on the frisbees & swapping them over.  The only time I let him chase the frisbee along the ground, he took off & I had to go after him, so it was all on lead after that.

[sheena]

This morning...jumped straight into the car (& back out again) but a big improvement.  Didn't want to come back through the gate so I left him, shut the gate & got Cricket out to do some clicker training 

[Tassie]

It's all a work in progress, isn't it .. but sounds like the progress is in the right direction!! 

[corvus]

You can win this mind game with start button behaviours. Just shift them to places he thinks mean will predict no more work. E.g. "I only train dogs that are in a quiet down on that mat. Great! Now let me send you to other mats before and during real training. Great! Now let me send you to the car and then back to the mat for more training." As long as you avoid letting the places predict things other than work, he will stop caring about them. I would expect once you're on top of it, he will forget about it and you won't have a problem again. And if you do, then just go back to a little remedial work. Start button behaviours are handy for dogs that have learned ways to be demanding. If they know a behaviour that starts training, they abandon all the other less effective ways they know.

[mysascha]

Hello everyone! I've just joined you and I'm so happy to have found someone with a similar problem!

I have an 8mth PBGV who, after walking quite well (for 8 mths) for sometime, has now apparently decided that a) I don't walk in the right direction and b) I don't stop often enough. She either does a very good pancake impression or just sits there. We usually get to walk a little way until she finds something interesting like meeting a dog walking in the opposite direction and I think she just wants to play.

I've tried bribing her, but she quickly worked that out! Then I tried getting her up with a treat, but not giving it to her until she either sat or dropped - or if I was a little cross, both. Now, when she's had enough I look around and if she's not lying flat, she's sitting and looking hopeful.

I would be grateful for some hints, 'cos my gorgeous girl is driving me crazy!

[persephone]

hello, mysascha. 
I will recommend you start your own thread
you are in someone else's thread here, and so your particular problem is not THE TOPIC - and may not grab folk's attention.   ;) Go to the page top (L H side) & click on discussion forums. THEN go down, click on TRAINING/OBEDIENCE/DOG SPORTS , and then click on the green "start new topic"  Easy 

[sheena]

The good news is I am on top of the tantrums & are finding waays to manage them, but they don't hapapen very often now.  It is still embarrassing when I take him to the vets & he lays down & flatly refuses to move out of her office.  He just loves going to the vets so much.  

The bad news, & I don't know if this has grown out of his tantrum behaviour, but he is now resource guarding.  We are away camping & if we walk the two together when we are approaching the caravan, he goes into a frenzy & has bitten my husband badly twice on the leg & had another go yesterday.  It only happens when the two are together & I think it is prompted by Cricket giving a very low growl (he is a grumpy old thing) & undortunately Jaxon reacts & the first thing he sees is my husbands leg.  We are only here for another couple of days & I hope it doesn't start to happen when we get home.  I have bought a soft muzzle to put on him in the meantime & will only put it on him when we are nearing the trigger point (for our own protection).  He is fine with other dogs & the two of them play together nicely on the beach.  At home they do play a rather aggressive game of tug together & I am wondering if this might be the wrong sort of game for them to be playing together. Unfotunately I live out bush & not close to any behavourist that I can think of.

[persephone]

Sheena...pls email/phone the team @ k9 Pro . This redirected aggression is serious . Steve does do phone consults - and he ( or one of the other excellent team members) can give you the best advice. Are you able to get one or two short videos of the behaviour to show them? that will help. 
What a worry for you. I'm sorry this has cropped up