Why pedigree dogs are on the line

[sandgrubber]

I've followed these forums for more than a decade.  Years back, everyone knew that PDE stood for Pedigree Dogs Exposed and it seemed like most hated Jemima Harrison (for showing their dirty linen?). 

Worth reading the latest PDE post. 

http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2020/01/wasabi-win-confirms-show-world.html?m=1

The issue hasn't gone away. 

I, for one, agree with a lot of the points raised on PDE.  But I don't think the pedigree is the problem.  Rather, it's closed minds, closed stud books, and putting THE STANDARD as interpreted by show ring judges ahead of health and temperament... and failure of most of the pedigree world to keep records of longevity and causes of death and morbidity.  Pedigrees can be used to good. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by sandgrubber
Minor additions

[asal]

When I bought my first chihuahua, I quickly noticed many breeders saw no negativity in continuing family lines that the mother could not deliver her puppies, some were generations of ceaser only deliveries? to me this was a cruelty issue. How many families who bought a pup from these lines was made aware if they decided to breed if they had bought a bitch puppy that was either too narrow in the pelvis, or too small to deliver. Was being handed a death sentence if they did not live within travelling distance of the local vet?

 

in 1978 the standard had the sentence "In the case of equal merit, the more diminutive preferred"

 

It only took attending a few shows to quickly realise a significant majority of judges didn't even pay lip service to "equal merit" , they simply called in the tiniest in the classes.

So show males and bitches were significantly tiny, despite a standard that still stated then AND now............. "Weight: up to 2.7 kg (6 lbs), with 1.8-2.7 kgs (4-6 lbs) preferred."

 

on the main show dogs both male and female were 1.2 k or less.

 

Anyone who had a copy of Hilary Harmers book The Complete Chihuahua, she stressed the minimum weight for a breeding bitch.

 

But the Aussie show scene was ignoring it.  Pointed this out for years, suggested to a friend who was an international judge and bred chi's. that the "more diminutive preferred" needed removal as it was detrimental to the well being and health of the breed for decades.

 

So many other things needed addressing in so many breeds but no one listened.

 

and YES, YES, YES,  a record of ages of the dogs is needed to help identify and preserve the long lived genes in all breeds.

 

Cant express how disgusted and equally sad for the the pedigree dog world I felt when the first thing done after PDE aired was the offending words I had been asking be deleted for so long disappeared from the standard.........FINALLY.

 

This the greatest weakness of the pedigree dog world.

The failure to proactively lead by example.

 

instead of only reacting AFTER being publicly shamed

 

yes short faced breeds are cute.... BUT

 

that is no excuse for shortening and shortening until the living work of art is suffering.

 

the damage is not only to the dogs

 

cats suffer the same insults to their health

 

all in the name of a bloody blue ribbon and CH in front of its name.

 

 

For decades, fellow members have been questioning,  Why are our breeds morphing in the excuse of "improving" them when clearly the changes are getting so marked people have been posting "before" and "now" photos of the same breed, continually moving away from what it was, always excused by those selecting for the exaggerations as they are "improving".

 

Arabians have suffered the same fate, as has the American Quarter Horse.  At least the Arabians haven't ended up with hind legs so straight behind they have arthritis by 7.  i began to see the "show" scene as the beginning of the end for health, soundness and temperament of so many breeds, Canine, Feline, and Equine.

 

e.g.   

"

OPENING UP A CAN OF WORMS (halter horses)

---

Ok I'm a quarter horse man. Or anything that has QH influence whether it's a paint or whatever. And I like a big stout horse as much as the next guy.....But haven't we gone too far?

Years ago in the old QH shows, they used to ride halter horses. YES, REALLY THEY USED TO RIDE THEM! Most (not all) of the modern day halter horses are laughable under saddle. They no longer are the model of what a riding horse should look like. They're overly-muscled, not flexible or athletic, and we've succeeded in breeding most of the good trainable minds out also. I'm not talking out of my butt here. I've been involved with some very successful horses and their breeders. I've ridden some that were good enough to make it to the Congress, etc. in halter. Kudos to the people for having good halter horses ridden! They brought pretty good money as dual purpose horses too. But they're the exception. Trying to talk the owners into breeding more usability into them is pointless. They know they won't win a halter class. Too specialized.

In my opinion, a halter horse should be required to perform in at least 1 performance event. I know they won't be successful but maybe it would shame the breeders back into reality.

I doubt I'm the only one who sees this problem and halter horses aren't the only specialized ones. Hunters don't even resemble QHs anymore, but I do think Halter horses are the most detrimental to the breed. What do you guys think? "

 

https://equineink.com/2011/04/24/have-halter-horses-become-the-bodybuilders-of-the-equine-world/

 

My favourite breed the Arabian, has put so much emphasis on "animation"  they are selecting for nut cases...   The quiet, gentle kid friendly horses I knew in the 60's are the minority in the halter ring.

only recently was an add for an Arabian filly.......THEIR selling point?   SHE had LOADS OF SNORT!...............

 

a GOOD Arabian, well once upon a time, is asleep until you  mount up.

only then did the head go up the tail go up and he or she looked like the fiery steed of old.

Except said show off was totally attuned to you and loved to please.

Temperament in a saddle horse is EVERYTHING. just as it is in your dog.

 

I noted the QH chap mentioned the loss of temperament in his breed too.

 

 

Will the show scene ever wake up?

 

not so far

 

But can only hope.

Edited January 5, 2020 by asal

[Jed]

How much do you know about breeding, or pekingese?  The breeding being bashed by Ms Whatsit is and has been accepted for decades as good breeding -  to set a gene - to keep in quality.  And not just in dogs, in all animal breeding. Please check out some of the winning racehorses and their pedigrees.

Animal Rights was about to do a number on pekingeses, and then realised that they lived to their late teens without health problems.  If you are interested, please join one of the many facebook sites for pekingese owners

.
Lastly, Peakingese are not supposted to be "animated" in the ring.  They are supposed to be sedate, and to show their distinctive rolling gate to the judge.  They  are perfectly capable of running and jumping, but not in the ring."  The correct  gait is shown at a  walk.  Other breeds do the same - a spaniel variety must walk whilst being judged.

 This woman thrives on half lies and full lies.  Shame she never lets the truth get in the way of a good  beat up against purebred dogs.

And no, I don't own a pekingese, but I 've known a few, and after reading this woman's claptrap years ago, I did some serious research on the breed.  The above information is the result of that researrh.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Jed

[Dogsfevr]

Also shows how stupid people are in believing the crap and not actually getting off there butts and seeing the breed in real life .

 

 

I have handled Pekes and heard all sorts of expert  comments from idiots who know nothing and above all never meet one .

Makes them look like such fools .

Jed yes there life spans are amazing and good health into there old years .Like any dog an issue can happen  but Pekes in the scheme of things are a very hardy breed 

Friends breed them and very normal for them to be 16/17 and very active at that age .

 

They can be feisty buggers ,they love running ,retrieving and love people.

 

 

[Diva]

Yep, a friend of mine took on a pair of  older Pekes after their owner died.

We nicknamed them the fluffy slippers and they lived on into a grand old age. Very active and no health issues until high into their teens. Great dogs. 

[Rebanne]

My parents had 3 pekes, 2 related, one not. Yep lived to their teens with very few problems.

[sandgrubber]

17 hours ago, Jed said:

How much do you know about breeding, or pekingese?  The breeding being bashed by Ms Whatsit is and has been accepted for decades as good breeding -  to set a gene - to keep in quality.  And not just in dogs, in all animal breeding. Please check out some of the winning racehorses and their pedigrees.

Animal Rights was about to do a number on pekingeses, and then realised that they lived to their late teens without health problems.  If you are interested, please join one of the many facebook sites for pekingese owners

.
Lastly, Peakingese are not supposted to be "animated" in the ring.  They are supposed to be sedate, and to show their distinctive rolling gate to the judge.  They  are perfectly capable of running and jumping, but not in the ring."  The correct  gait is shown at a  walk.  Other breeds do the same - a spaniel variety must walk whilst being judged.

 This woman thrives on half lies and full lies.  Shame she never lets the truth get in the way of a good  beat up against purebred dogs.

And no, I don't own a pekingese, but I 've known a few, and after reading this woman's claptrap years ago, I did some serious research on the breed.  The above information is the result of that researrh.

Do you approve of using a dog over not only his daughter, but also his granddaughter and great granddaughter? Do you think that extreme coat is a good thing? Breeding for looks that require high maintenance results in dogs whose only use is show. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by sandgrubber
Additional information

[Jed]

Line breeding in that form is a feature of    breeding practices  of great breeders of the past and present of many species. 

Check  out pedigrees of great racehorses too.  Check out Winx. l⁷

 

Pekingese  were not bred  for "the show".  They were bred in palaces as a sleeve and companion dog.  Slaves, eunuchs and servants did the grooming 

However  this breed only needs grooming once or twice a week, and rarely need washing. 

 

Not everyone wants a running,  jumping, barking herding  or fetching dog.  Some want a  companion.

This wretched  woman would be better not to push her numpty ideas  onto others  in the guise of "animal welfare*.

PeKes are fine already  thanks.  They have been fine for hundreds of years,  and before this breed destroyer  arrived and will

be fine after she has gone.⁹

[Dogsfevr]

Barely-walking dust-bunny in fact. I have rarely seen a less animated dog than Wasabi. Perhaps hoping that if he keeps his head down, it will all go away.

If this is the best she can write it really shows shes grasping at straws .

Pekes have actually done amazingly well at dog sports over the years  & very popular therapy dogs
They certainly don't compete in the big numbers of many other breeds but in the scheme of things & especially in the US there successes in obedience & agility  is nothing to be laughed about or given the label of being a no purpose in life breed .
Pekes are fire crackers & wasabi actually showed alot of expression in the ring & also demonstrated a bomb proof nature  with so much going on around him  & showed the same happy go lucky nature at the TV interviews the next day ,i doubt many followers of this nutcase can say the same about there dogs .

As for high maintenance coat a Pekes coat is no more work than a Sheltie,Collie or any other double coated breed than needs brushing weekly & a little more effort lwhen doing the big puppy/adult coat drop  but that applies to most breeds that are coated or in the process of changing coat .
Infact brushing out a Peke is very easy compared to many coated breeds & as someone who has handled & prepped Pekes(brushing,bathing,drying  ) for shows & owns long coat breeds i can certainly say i have hands on experience & there way easier than many a breed even i have owned .



 

[sandgrubber]

7 hours ago, Jed said:

Line breeding in that form is a feature of    breeding practices  of great breeders of the past and present of many species. 

Check  out pedigrees of great racehorses too.  Check out Winx. l⁷

From ANKC regulations 

28. A member shall not conduct or permit mother / son, father / daughter or brother / sister matings. The member is fully aware that puppies as a result of such matings will not be registered without first gaining approval from the Member Body for the mating for scientifically proven welfare or veterinary reasons. (Added EAP 07/11)

 

[asal]

On 06/01/2020 at 6:28 AM, sandgrubber said:

Do you approve of using a dog over not only his daughter, but also his granddaughter and great granddaughter? Do you think that extreme coat is a good thing? Breeding for looks that require high maintenance results in dogs whose only use is show. 

it doesn't matter what some one approves or not.

The fact is doing so is the best way to find out if a sire or dam carries not only good genes but will show up deleterious ones too. In which case it can be deleted from the gene pool. Now this cannot be done in dogs. it remains hidden until a dna test can be found.

 

before the test for scids was found, the only way to know if you had a carrier was to either put it to known carriers, or mother to son or father to daughter's.

 

As my horse had been accused of being a carrier even though he had never sired one, to find out I put him to his daughters.  The results were not only clear, they were were outstanding saddle horses and in Andy's case became number 3 in the world. Another defeated 7,000 to win the National point score.

 

of course in the dog world that now cannot happen because opinion is more important than fact. Line breeding has been the tool of many of the top breeders of all species, but the codicil is you need to have an aim and be prepared to accept and deal with the knowledge gained.

 

the rules now ensure no one can use this tool in the future

 

the hysteria about inbreeding being the cause of all evil has even extended to vets,  now they tell you even a congenital defect was the result of inbreeding despite the fact  there are two possibilities.

 

"A congenital disorder is a medical condition that is present at or before birth. These conditions, also referred to as birth defects, can be acquired during the fetal stage of development or from the genetic make up of the parents."

 

Now they just lump everything as genetic AND state the cause was "inbreeding" when in fact if it is genetic and not a developmenatal abnormality the parents genetic make up can still carry a defect without being related......  but it's far easier to say they must be "inbred" than go to the trouble of explaining.

 

Although in the case of some, I dont think they even know the difference

 

Edited January 11, 2020 by asal

[Jed]

Unfortunately, Sandgrubber, you don't get it and you never will.

And no matter what is said, you still don't get it.

So sorry. 

[Dogsfevr]

deleted

Edited January 12, 2020 by Dogsfevr