RSPCA post ....anyone want to post a rebuttal ?

[persephone]

 

[asal]

rebuttal?

 

I know of families that have been told point blank, stop your dog barking or put it down.   tell them to try canine trainers and behaviourists butt the ones that had failed, they tend to be at their wits end when I get the next call

 

not allowed to use collars, not allowed to get debarked.. I have had them ring me for advice is there a vet I know who will debark or will have to be put down.

 

I certainly do not know of any vets who will now.. so the dog must either be "rehomed" and who wants a barker

 

I suspect most who asked for help gave up and had it put down.

 

I dread such calls now. being an instructor know so many people who if they have a friend in trouble tell em ring her she might be able to help........

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2019 by asal

[Tempus Fugit]

and are illegal in most states and territories.

 

Clicking on the 1st link in the OP seems to tell a different story.

 

The article appears to be yet another case of PP advocates trying to convince people that their opinions are the only correct ones. The are like people who want to make it illegal to smack a child for misbehaviour.

 

The trouble is that to challenge the RSPCA would require an expensive court case similar to those mounted by people challenging councils over dangerous dog declarations. I know of only one successful challenge against the RSPCA over E collars, a defamation case  in the Federal Court of Australia: Orion Pet Products vs RSPCA (Vic) [2002] FCA 860 (5 July 2002). This ultimately led to E collars being allowed in Victoria albeit with severe restrictions.

 

It would be interesting to learn how many successful prosecutions there have been for cruel misuse of E collars, as a proportion of the number of owners using them in those states where E collars are legal, e.g. Qld, WA, Tas etc.

 

[sandgrubber]

Soon full of b.s. it would take hours to rebut.  Not worth the effort. 

What next... arrest people for yelling at their dogs to shut up or tugging on a leash ?  That's punishment too, and for some dogs, more distressing than a light tap with an e-device.  Even better, why not go after people whose dogs suffer loneliness and boredom. 

If they want to avoid cruel use of e-device, and it does happen (though nowhere near so often as other forms of cruelty) , they should restrict maximum settings so that the dog can't get more than an unpleasant tap. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by sandgrubber
Further thoughts

[persephone]

3 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

they should restrict maximum settings so that the dog can't get more than an unpleasant tap. 

...but that's sensible ! It'd be like restricting speeds on cars .... 

[Tempus Fugit]

10 hours ago, sandgrubber said:

 

If they want to avoid cruel use of e-device, and it does happen (though nowhere near so often as other forms of cruelty) , they should restrict maximum settings so that the dog can't get more than an unpleasant tap. 

In the Vic POCTA regs:

                 (i)     the power of the collar must not exceed either 15 milliamps root mean square or 100 milliamps single pulse with a maximum duration of 3 milliamps per second; and

              (ii)     the length of the stimulation period must be limited by an automatic safety cut-out; and

              (iii)     the collar must provide for variable levels of static stimulation; and

(c)     a collar is not left on the dog or cat for more than 12 hours in any 24-hour period; 

[persephone]

1 hour ago, Tempus Fugit said:

the power of the collar must not exceed either 15 milliamps root mean square or 100 milliamps single pulse with a maximum duration of 3 milliamps per second; and

for someone to whom numbers mean nowt ... can this be simplified  or transferred to what an actual collar does or ... something ?   Pls ? 

[tdierikx]

Basically, the stimulus must be enough to get attention, but not high enough or long enough to actually hurt the animal @persephone

 

A wall socket in your house delivers a maximum of 10 amps - which theoretically can kill you (volts don't actually kill, the amps do), so 100 milliamps is about 1/100th of that strength - certainly enough to get attention, but not enough to do real damage.

 

T.

[The Spotted Devil]

As someone intimately  involved in world first virtual fencing for livestock, the numbers/description in the POCTA Regs don’t tell the whole story. It’s much more complex and is about energy delivered to the skin. Those regs, I suspect, are sourced from manufacturers rather than being defined by the department.

[Tempus Fugit]

On 10/2/2019 at 6:41 PM, tdierikx said:

A wall socket in your house delivers a maximum of 10 amps - which theoretically can kill you (volts don't actually kill, the amps do), so 100 milliamps is about 1/100th of that strength - certainly enough to get attention, but not enough to do real damage.

 

T.

The 10 Ampere rating of a wall socket refers to the maximum current that can be safely drawn through it without overheating and possibly starting a fire. It is not a limit on what it can deliver.

 

 

On 10/2/2019 at 7:46 PM, The Spotted Devil said:

As someone intimately  involved in world first virtual fencing for livestock, the numbers/description in the POCTA Regs don’t tell the whole story. It’s much more complex and is about energy delivered to the skin. Those regs, I suspect, are sourced from manufacturers rather than being defined by the department.

Yes.

 

A more detailed explanation is given in Australian/ New Zealand Standards AS/NZS 60479.1:2002 & 60479.2:2002. Effects of current on human beings & livestock. & AS/NZS 60479.3:2002  https://infostore.saiglobal.com/en-au/Standards/AS-NZS-60479-1-2002-115882_SAIG_AS_AS_242135/.  & https://infostore.saiglobal.com/en-au/Standards/AS-NZS-60479-2-2002-115881_SAIG_AS_AS_242133/ & https://infostore.saiglobal.com/en-au/Standards/AS-NZS-60479-3-2002-R2016--115880_SAIG_AS_AS_242131/

 

You can buy the Standards but if you are lucky enough to be attending a tertiary education establishment you may be able to access them through your library.

•  

 

[Tempus Fugit]

On 10/1/2019 at 9:54 PM, asal said:

rebuttal?

 

I know of families that have been told point blank, stop your dog barking or put it down.   tell them to try canine trainers and behaviourists butt the ones that had failed, they tend to be at their wits end when I get the next call

 

not allowed to use collars, not allowed to get debarked.. I have had them ring me for advice is there a vet I know who will debark or will have to be put down.

 

I certainly do not know of any vets who will now.. so the dog must either be "rehomed" and who wants a barker

 

I suspect most who asked for help gave up and had it put down.

 

I dread such calls now. being an instructor know so many people who if they have a friend in trouble tell em ring her she might be able to help........

 

 

 

And this is what  we end up with https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7536487/South-Australian-man-sentenced-tied-German-Shepherd-dogs-snout-shut-CABLE-TIE.html#i-3cd97e3320219cc7

[leac1801]

There's already a lot of good comments telling them how idiotic they are.

 

I mean, I used mine on my back/shoulders the other day because my sister has my TENS unit. According to this one, with a study they can't produce evidence of, I should have brain damage.

[sandgrubber]

On 10/4/2019 at 8:14 PM, Tempus Fugit said:

The 10 Ampere rating of a wall socket refers to the maximum current that can be safely drawn through it without overheating and possibly starting a fire. It is not a limit on what it can deliver.

 

 

Yes.

 

A more detailed explanation is given in Australian/ New Zealand Standards AS/NZS 60479.1:2002 & 60479.2:2002. Effects of current on human beings & livestock. & AS/NZS 60479.3:2002  https://infostore.saiglobal.com/en-au/Standards/AS-NZS-60479-1-2002-115882_SAIG_AS_AS_242135/.  & https://infostore.saiglobal.com/en-au/Standards/AS-NZS-60479-2-2002-115881_SAIG_AS_AS_242133/ & https://infostore.saiglobal.com/en-au/Standards/AS-NZS-60479-3-2002-R2016--115880_SAIG_AS_AS_242131/

 

You can buy the Standards but if you are lucky enough to be attending a tertiary education establishment you may be able to access them through your library.

•  

 

Annoying that national standards aren't free to access online. A bit like the Middle Ages when the Bible was considered God's law, only elites could access it. 

[asal]

On 06/10/2019 at 5:30 AM, sandgrubber said:

Annoying that national standards aren't free to access online. A bit like the Middle Ages when the Bible was considered God's law, only elites could access it. 

watching a movie the other night about I think she was a Greek philosophiser , some Christian fanatic Cyril was quoting the bible about women should never advise men or something along those lines and he declared her a whore and a witch to be killed...........reminded me of the DV killings today....

 

As others have pointed out, on various forums................one man killed by a shark and its lets kill the sharks.........more than one woman a week dies in Domestic Violence and I have heard men saying she probably caused it.

Reminded me of my ex so much, arrived home from shopping with my friend to be told, "you are late!"  stupidly I asked, "but you didn't say when we had to be back by?"

WHACK! to the head.   As I stood fighting to not fall down my head was spinning so bad, I asked why did you hit me.

his reply?  "You made me do it, you are hysterical, the only way to snap you out of it is a good slap to the head."

 

Next morning when I tried to get up to get his breakfast only made it to the door before i passed out and woke up vomiting uncontrollably.......no matter how hard I tried couldn't get up.

He just stepped over me, got his breakfast and went to work while I struggled not to breathe in the vomit, so hard to even move away from it.

Lay there wondering if I was going to die.

no idea how long I lay there but suddenly my mum arrived.

too ashamed to say Owen did it.

told her I had tripped and hit my head on the doorway.. ..

asked why did she come, apparently my boss had called her asking her to check on me as I had not turned up for work and not answering the phone and I never not turned up without calling.  Love my boss.

 

she took me to hospital and learned I had a fractured skull and severe concussion.

 

Prior to that had ear drum ruptured, fractured dislocated jaw and concussion with each.  Those times too he said "you made me do it", but never said why.

 

I left him for good after a young copper came to see me and told me his sister was now in a nursing home and literally a vegetable because she didn't run while she had the chance. Now she would never walk let alone talk again.

He said run while you can.

 

he did go ballistic and told he he would kill me before he died so I lived with that hanging over my head for the rest of my life.....he stalked me for years and the stress was crippling but finally a few years ago he died.........such relief

 

 

 

I am one of the lucky ones.

Edited October 12, 2019 by asal

[Boronia]

1 hour ago, asal said:

watching a movie the other night about I think she was a Greek philosophiser , some Christian fanatic Cyril was quoting the bible about women should never advise men or something along those lines and he declared her a whore and a witch to be killed...........reminded me of the DV killings today....

 

As others have pointed out, on various forums................one man killed by a shark and its lets kill the sharks.........more than one woman a week dies in Domestic Violence and I have heard men saying she probably caused it.

Reminded me of my ex so much, arrived home from shopping with my friend to be told, "you are late!"  stupidly I asked, "but you didn't say when we had to be back by?"

WHACK! to the head.   As I stood fighting to not fall down my head was spinning so bad, I asked why did you hit me.

his reply?  "You made me do it, you are hysterical, the only way to snap you out of it is a good slap to the head."

 

Next morning when I tried to get up to get his breakfast only made it to the door before i passed out and woke up vomiting uncontrollably.......no matter how hard I tried couldn't get up.

He just stepped over me, got his breakfast and went to work while I struggled not to breathe in the vomit, so hard to even move away from it.

Lay there wondering if I was going to die.

no idea how long I lay there but suddenly my mum arrived.

too ashamed to say Owen did it.

told her I had tripped and hit my head on the doorway.. ..

asked why did she come, apparently my boss had called her asking her to check on me as I had not turned up for work and not answering the phone and I never not turned up without calling.  Love my boss.

 

she took me to hospital and learned I had a fractured skull and severe concussion.

 

Prior to that had ear drum ruptured, fractured dislocated jaw and concussion with each.  Those times too he said "you made me do it", but never said why.

 

I left him for good after a young copper came to see me and told me his sister was now in a nursing home and literally a vegetable because she didn't run while she had the chance. Now she would never walk let alone talk again.

He said run while you can.

 

he did go ballistic and told he he would kill me before he died so I lived with that hanging over my head for the rest of my life.....he stalked me for years and the stress was crippling but finally a few years ago he died.........such relief

 

 

 

I am one of the lucky ones.