Blue Staffordshire Bull Terrier breeder - can they be trusted?

[jac_1983]

I have read many posts regarding breeders of blue staffordshire bull terriers. The majority say that breeders of blue dogs are unethical. I understand the reasoning behind this and am not here to ask about what health conditions these dogs may have as I am well aware of the potential conditions. We have owned one purebred black staffy and a tan amstaff x before. The black staffy died from cancer and the amstaff x had a bad skin allergy. Prior to that I had Jack Russell Terriers. Both died from cancer and one had bad skin allergies. Skin allergies, in my limited experience with dogs, seem to be something that does crop up relatively frequently. Most of the time its treatable and I'm OK with that. We have two very young children who have grown up with our most recent staffy. We would like to welcome a new dog into our house. We usually get rescue dogs but on this occasion we feel that it would be in the best interests of our children to get a puppy that can grow up with them and be used to kids from a very young age. We love the staffy breed and feel they are the right temperament, size and energy level for our household. I contacted about 6 breeders. My husband would like a blue staffy because we've had black and tan before (less confusing for the kids if its a different colour) and because he has always admired them(no judgement please). We want a calm, good natured dog who will become a member of our family. The breeder I like the most has a puppy for us and raises her dogs in her family home with her husband and 4 young children. She breeds blue with blue. I've questioned her regarding skin conditions and temperament. Her response was that she has only seen alopecia once (not in her dogs) but that was 8 years ago and she feels that honest breeders have tried to breed the condition out. She believes that "backyard breeders" would probably not be so vigilant with this. With regards to allergies she had a black staffy and it had bad skin but none of her blues have had a problem yet. She spent a lot of money purchasing her stud, whose father was actually imported from overseas. All her dogs are tested for the common genetic conditions and have beautiful temperaments. So can I trust her? Her dogs look healthy and happy. They are surrounded by children. She hasn't asked for a deposit until we come and visit and then decide to go ahead. She lives several hours outside of Sydney and doesn't advertise her litters (she was the last breeder I stumbled across after extensive searching, but she didn't state she had puppies). Can a blue staffy breeder still breed healthy, good natured pups even though its allegedly unethical snd not in the best interest of the breed? Is there such a thing as an ethical blue staffy breeder?

[Dogsfevr]

We have boarded numerous Blue Staffies & all have skin issues .
I would suggest its not a case of can you trust a blue staffy breeder but are you happy to take the risk of a skin issue dog that could potentially make the enjoyment your kids can get out of it not what you signed up for .

All the Blue staffies we board have lovely natures they just have skin issues .

My first question to them would be why they choice to bred Blues ,why she breeds Blue to Blue .Is there asking price way more than the correct colours .
,do they show or do any dog sports or do they just breed pups ??If they don't compete in any dog activity why did they decide to breed Staffies ,questions you ask
As far as her spending lots of money to purchase a stud dog is irrelevant & if the breeder made a point of telling you that i see that as a "why".
Breeding dogs is not about how much it cost to buy your stud dog or a bitch nor is that something you emphasis to a puppy buyer unless you charge more .

Ask lots of questions & buy with your head (personally i would not buy a colour that is well known for bigger skin issues)
 

[juice]

I’d be more interested in the right conformation  and temp than going with a colour that isn’t recognised in the breed . 

Breeding blues only screams money making , of course she can spend lots on a stud dog she is making heaps selling the latest craze . 

 

[tdierikx]

Skin issues can be only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to blue/blue bred staffies... I have seen a few hermaphrodites... also some with sight/hearing issues...

 

I'd be more likely to go with  breeder who doesn't breed specifically for blue, but occasionally throws same in regular coloured litters.

 

I'd be very leery of anyone who tries to talk up how "healthy" their blue/blue bred pups will be long term.

 

I'd also like to know how anyone can be mains registering (for breeding/showing) Staffords that are not conforming to the colour standards set for the breed.

 

Oh... and blue Staffords are as rare as rocks nowadays, so paying higher prices for them is ridiculous and money-grabbing.

 

T.

 

[asal]

actually if the dogs are English Staffordshire Bull terriers blue is listed as acceptable in the standard.

 

ie

 

"·  Colour:

Red, fawn, white, black or blue, or any one of these colours with white. Any shade of brindle or any shade of brindle with white. Black and tan or liver colour highly undesirable."

 

 

if the dog they are referring to is American Staffordshire the standard is

 

"·  Colour:

Any colour, solid, parti, or patched is permissible, but all white, more than 80% white, black and tan, and liver not to be encouraged."

 

 

 

It is the French Bulldog that does not register blue.

 

"·  Colour:

The only correct colours are: Brindle; Fawn; Pied;

Brindle – Colour pattern caused by a mixture of black hairs and fawn hairs. White markings permitted provided that brindle predominates. Eye rims, eyelashes and lips black.
Fawn – Clear, self-coloured fawn with or without a black mask. White markings permitted, provided that fawn predominates. Cream and red shades less desirable. Eye rims, eyelashes and lips black.
Pied – Brindle Pied: White predominates with brindle patches. (The brindle as defined above). Fawn Pied: White predominates with fawn patches.
Whites are classified with pieds for show purposes.
In pieds, eye rims, eyelashes and lips should preferably be black.

Any white in the above colours should be clear with no ticking or spots.

All other colours highly undesirable, including solid black, black and white, black and tan, mouse, grey/blue, liver/chocolate and all patterns of these colours."

 

 

 

 

the breeders of the Weimaraner eliminated alopecia from their gene pool decades ago....ALL Weimaraner's are blue, a percentage are also double chocolate as well, hence double dilute, with none of the problems seen that the breeds that have not eliminated the alopecia elle from the gene pool, this was achieved before dna profiling made eliminating undesirable genes so much easier. So it is proven this can be eliminated.

 

"·  Colour:

Silver, roe or mouse grey, as well as shades of these colours. Head and leathers generally slightly paler. Only small white markings on chest or toes permitted. Sometimes a more or less defined trace occurs along the back. Dogs with definite reddish yellow markings may only be given the classification good. Brown marking is a serious fault"

 

 

 

If owners and breeders want blue with out the skin issues, it is an alle that is the cause of the problem, not the actual blue gene, (for example a bay horse would be black if it did not carry and additional "agouti" gene.. without that gene and only one copy is needed, my bay stallion only has one agouti gene, over half of his foals are black when bred to mares that do not carry the agouti gene)........  on average 1 in 4 blue chihuahua's have blue gene alopecia, which my vet said proves there is a secondary elle affecting which puppies develop blue gene alopecia and which do not..  if only blue parents free of alopecia were selected the responsible elle could be eliminated from the gene pool and no more affected puppies would be born.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by asal

[jac_1983]

14 hours ago, Dogsfevr said:

We have boarded numerous Blue Staffies & all have skin issues .
I would suggest its not a case of can you trust a blue staffy breeder but are you happy to take the risk of a skin issue dog that could potentially make the enjoyment your kids can get out of it not what you signed up for .

All the Blue staffies we board have lovely natures they just have skin issues .

My first question to them would be why they choice to bred Blues ,why she breeds Blue to Blue .Is there asking price way more than the correct colours .
,do they show or do any dog sports or do they just breed pups ??If they don't compete in any dog activity why did they decide to breed Staffies ,questions you ask
As far as her spending lots of money to purchase a stud dog is irrelevant & if the breeder made a point of telling you that i see that as a "why".
Breeding dogs is not about how much it cost to buy your stud dog or a bitch nor is that something you emphasis to a puppy buyer unless you charge more .

Ask lots of questions & buy with your head (personally i would not buy a colour that is well known for bigger skin issues)
 

Thank you for your comments. Her asking price seemed reasonable to me and in line with the price we paid for our first black staffy, so that didn't ring any alarm bells. The breeder only told me about her stud dog and his heritage when I asked her about the health and origins of her dog. I sent her an article that outlined the potential issues present in blue staffies and asked her to give me her honest opinion on the article. She didn't deny any of the claims in the article at all. She simply stated that there are also healthy blue staffies and that her stud and two bitches hadn't presented with any problems and were tested for genetic issues. With regards to temperament, she has four young children (youngest is 5) and the dogs are all family pets that are raised in their home. She wouldn't ever risk the lives of her children and wouldn't ever want her reputation tarnished by breeding aggressive puppies. I've had numerous conversations over the phone with her and she seems very honest and kind. Your comment that I should buy with my head is completely true! My head tells me I can trust her, but then I see negative comments regarding the blue breeders in general and I question myself. I just wonder if they developed a bad reputation due to "backyard breeders" who want to make money and don't care about health. Is it possible that some blue breeders just like the blues and will do their best to breed  healthy and gentle ones?

[asal]

"I have seen a few hermaphrodites... also some with sight/hearing issues..."

 

 

our first Border Collie turned out to be an Hemaphrodite, he/she was black with a white collar and four white feet.

 

The suspect cause of hearing issues according to Georgina Childs BvSc at Sydney Uni vet clinic is suspected to be linked to either white spotting, ie Dalmations. There is also genetic testing happening to see if a genetic component is detectable.

 

Horses with splash white faces involving or close the the ear tend to be deaf, apparently if the white includes the eardrum it is deaf.

 

in goats the gene for hornless, which is a dominant, produces a high incidence of Hermophrodites when hornless to hornless are bred together.

 

yet have never seen this problem in poll to poll cattle?

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by asal

[jac_1983]

12 minutes ago, asal said:

actually if the dogs are English Staffordshire Bull terriers blue is listed as acceptable in the standard.

 

ie

 

"·  Colour:

Red, fawn, white, black or blue, or any one of these colours with white. Any shade of brindle or any shade of brindle with white. Black and tan or liver colour highly undesirable."

 

 

if the dog they are referring to is American Staffordshire the standard is

 

"·  Colour:

Any colour, solid, parti, or patched is permissible, but all white, more than 80% white, black and tan, and liver not to be encouraged."

 

 

 

It is the French Bulldog that does not register blue.

 

"·  Colour:

The only correct colours are: Brindle; Fawn; Pied;

Brindle – Colour pattern caused by a mixture of black hairs and fawn hairs. White markings permitted provided that brindle predominates. Eye rims, eyelashes and lips black.
Fawn – Clear, self-coloured fawn with or without a black mask. White markings permitted, provided that fawn predominates. Cream and red shades less desirable. Eye rims, eyelashes and lips black.
Pied – Brindle Pied: White predominates with brindle patches. (The brindle as defined above). Fawn Pied: White predominates with fawn patches.
Whites are classified with pieds for show purposes.
In pieds, eye rims, eyelashes and lips should preferably be black.

Any white in the above colours should be clear with no ticking or spots.

All other colours highly undesirable, including solid black, black and white, black and tan, mouse, grey/blue, liver/chocolate and all patterns of these colours."

 

 

 

 

the breeders of the Weimaraner eliminated alopecia from their gene pool decades ago....ALL Weimaraner's are blue, a percentage are also double chocolate as well, hence double dilute, with none of the problems seen that the breeds that have not eliminated the alopecia elle from the gene pool, this was achieved before dna profiling made eliminating undesirable genes so much easier. So it is proven this can be eliminated.

 

"·  Colour:

Silver, roe or mouse grey, as well as shades of these colours. Head and leathers generally slightly paler. Only small white markings on chest or toes permitted. Sometimes a more or less defined trace occurs along the back. Dogs with definite reddish yellow markings may only be given the classification good. Brown marking is a serious fault"

 

 

 

If owners and breeders want blue with out the skin issues, it is an alle that is the cause of the problem, not the actual blue gene, (for example a bay horse would be black if it did not carry and additional "agouti" gene.. without that gene and only one copy is needed, my bay stallion only has one agouti gene, over half of his foals are black when bred to mares that do not carry the agouti gene)........  on average 1 in 4 blue chihuahua's have blue gene alopecia, which my vet said proves there is a secondary elle affecting which puppies develop blue gene alopecia and which do not..  if only blue parents free of alopecia were selected the responsible elle could be eliminated from the gene pool and no more affected puppies would be born.

 

 

Thank you! I have a degree in genetics, so that's why I did wonder why there was so much negative information on the health of blue staffies when surely some responsible breeders could "breed out" the undesirable issues. I completely understand that backyard breeders won't at all care about the health of the dogs. But it seems that blue staffies have been around for a while now and surely there must be some responsible breeders out there by now. We also spoke to numerous vets who have confirmed they see a greater number of blue staffies with skin allergies, but that is not to say that ALL blue staffies have skin issues.

[jac_1983]

3 hours ago, tdierikx said:

Skin issues can be only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to blue/blue bred staffies... I have seen a few hermaphrodites... also some with sight/hearing issues...

 

I'd be more likely to go with  breeder who doesn't breed specifically for blue, but occasionally throws same in regular coloured litters.

 

I'd be very leery of anyone who tries to talk up how "healthy" their blue/blue bred pups will be long term.

 

I'd also like to know how anyone can be mains registering (for breeding/showing) Staffords that are not conforming to the colour standards set for the breed.

 

Oh... and blue Staffords are as rare as rocks nowadays, so paying higher prices for them is ridiculous and money-grabbing.

 

T.

 

I don't believe any breeder can claim that the pups will be healthy long term. I would never believe any breeder who claimed that and I would be out of there quick smart! The breeder I'm dealing with has never talked about how healthy the pups will be long term. She can only tell me about the health of her current bitches and stud up to this point. She told me about the health of past staffies she has had too. We're paying the same price as what we paid for our back staffy many years ago. Blue staffies are definitely not rare and that isn't a drawcard for me anyway. We like the colour as much as we like blacks. Just want a different colour from our last as its nice to have some change when you've had to say goodbye to a furry friend.

[asal]

the problem is the minute you start talking about genetics and percentages, the majority seem to get glazed eyes and cant seem to get their head around it... I know when I was first sent to study genetics, at times I had to read the same pages two or three times or more before I began to understand what the writer was telling me...

 

it is not a simple subject is it

 

doesn't help when many authors write to educate the already educated to the word speak, so the newbie who doesn't understand the word speak yet feels like they are negotiating a new language

Edited June 21, 2019 by asal

[Rebanne]

Remove colour from the equation. Does the breeder health test, are the pups raised well, do the adults all have great temperaments? Have you seen the health test results? If so and you are happy then go ahead. You are aware there is potential to have a problem which is more then most puppy buyers are. But you could get a problem with any breed, any dog, any colour. Living creatures do tend to throw curve balls at us humans time and time again. Nothing is perfect.

[cannibalgoldfish]

Quote

Just want a different colour from our last as its nice to have some change when you've had to say goodbye to a furry friend

Slightly off topic but don't discount the "right" animal, no matter the colour. I totally get you on the bit above, We lost one of our British Shorthairs last year. She was a blue and we decided to get a different colour with our next cat for the same reasons. There were a couple of colours I particularly wanted but the main thing was any other colour than blue. Of course we found a great breeder and wanted one of her cats, and somehow we ended up with another blue! In the end the right breeder and the right fit for us ended up being more important than the colour. Our fears that another blue being too similar to Squishy never eventuated, Even though our new girl is the same colour she is so completely different in looks and personality that it was never an issue. :D 

There is nothing wrong with wanting a particular colour or look but don't be surprised if you end up with something completely different :D