Dental - to pull or not to pull

[teddybeans]

I would like to get some opinion on dental.  

 

My boy has some bad molars at the back.  The two upper back ones have recessed and despite brushing his teeth regularly, it seemed to have black gunk stuck on it (possibly rotten but i was able to scrap most of it off).  I cant get to the rest of the gunk because its right at the back and behind the gums.

 

I took my boy to see the vet and he indicated that the molars at the back are painful to get out.  They have to cut it in half and pull it out bit by bit.  He said he will do an xray first, and if the tooth is still healthy with a reasonable amount of gum attached, then we may be able to leave it alone.

 

Now here is the thing, I can't clean that tooth so I'm two minded about leaving it alone.  The tooth has problems, potentially hurting my boy because he is no longer chewing on bones.... but that could be because of the loose front teeth at the front - that i don't know until we remove it.  If i leave the molars alone, i'm probably looking for another surgery in another 12 months time.  I don't want to have to put my boy under again to get it examined only to find its rotted up again.  Secondly, the cost to do this all over again is not cheap.  

 

If the xrays show they are bad then its a no brainer, needs to come out.  My question is, if the xray shows the teeth is still healthy and I leave it alone, would the rotting affect his health, his breath is already bad.  Stuff is getting into the recessed area and I can't clean it, over time, its going to be problematic.   

If i get it pulled out, would this cause a lot of pain to have two molars out at the same time.  Can my dog still eat without the upper molars?  The bottom two molars are also looking to be problematic in the future, but they are in better condition than the top two.  

 

 

[Jumabaar]

If the teeth are healthy leave them in. You can always have them removed if they become problematic in the future. 

Many dogs require annual dental procedures and all dogs (and cats) should have a visual dental assessment yearly.

 

If they are healthy cleaning will get you back to square 1. And so you can play it by ear. 

[Rebanne]

Yes bad teeth can be very harmful to a dogs health. My dog could still eat perfectly well after having all his teeth removed. Most in one op. In fact he recovered much better after having 20 or more teeth out then when he only had 2 or 3.

[PANDI-GIRL]

@Rebanne  your dogs have bones for chewing I thought,   Don't  bones stop dental problems?   What happened,  Why did he need all his teeth removed,  Sounds awfull for him  

[_PL_]

11 minutes ago, PANDI-GIRL said:

@Rebanne  your dogs have bones for chewing I thought,   Don't  bones stop dental problems?   What happened,  Why did he need all his teeth removed,  Sounds awfull for him  

We have regular 'bone nights' which even the toothless enjoy, they suck the meat off. lol. But we still do regular dentals, certain dogs seem to have worse enamel than others. Some will still lose teeth no matter what they eat. 

 

We've gotten pound dogs who've needed a mouthful of teeth removed and visibly felt much much better. I guess the rot, sore gums (and even pus in the worst ones) was not just painful but making them sick and I can't imagine how bad it would taste in their mouth either. I'm not a vet  but have been told a rotten tooth can also send bacteria into the bloodstream, kidneys and heart. We've had a couple of stomatitis dogs too.

[BDJ]

You may be surprised at the condition of his back teeth once they are cleaned.

 

I have just had a dental done on my SWF.   I knew he would need to have teeth removed, but neither the vet or I knew how many until he was under.  He ended up having all incisors removed (a couple were ok, but leaving just a few odd ones would have caused more issues than taking them all out).  His back teeth looked dodgy, but all they needed was a good clean.  So now he has a perfect mouth from his canines back, but nothing across the front.

 

I wouldn't remove good teeth just to avoid a possible surgery later on, but if they are terrible, then even if it is a big procedure, it would be better than him living with mouth pain.   

 

Animals are too stoic for their own good, particularly when it is not something they can hold up like a paw

 

A cat story - years ago I had an old cat.  Her teeth were bad, but after discussion with the vet we decided not to remove them as she had such a tiny mouth he was concerned she may end up with a broken/weak jaw due to the roots being so big.   She was an old girl and as she started to slow down and sleep more I initially put it down to age.  But after 6 months I went back and told him that even though she was eating etc, I thought it was pain, and that I wanted the surgery - with full understanding that if he encountered significant issues with her bottom jaw I understood that he may have to put her down on the table.   I have never cried so much - she got through the surgery so well and within a week I had my 'kitten' back - playing, running, talking, stalking me in the bedroom etc etc.  Her mouth must have been so painful - and it was on my watch.  I have never felt so guilty.   

[Deeds]

Dr Christine Hawke in Sydney is a specialist in animal dentistry.  She is with Advanced Veterinary Dentistry.

[teddybeans]

22 hours ago, Jumabaar said:

If the teeth are healthy leave them in. You can always have them removed if they become problematic in the future. 

Many dogs require annual dental procedures and all dogs (and cats) should have a visual dental assessment yearly.

 

If they are healthy cleaning will get you back to square 1. And so you can play it by ear. 

Last year they were bad already, you can see its recessed and gunk is getting in. They cleaned it already one year ago when he was getting another pulled.  And this year it's gone worst.

 

True i can have it removed later but I don't want to be putting my dog under every year or traumatising him, he is rather nervous around other dog (in the surgery) as he hasn't been properly socialised since he is allergic to vaccinations.  My thinking is do it once because its only a matter of time that one will become a problem (if its not already one).  I don't know whether its those molars that are causing him pain like i mentioned in my initial post.  He has stopped eating bones.  Just licks it a bit and walks away now.

 

 

10 hours ago, Powerlegs said:

'm not a vet  but have been told a rotten tooth can also send bacteria into the bloodstream, kidneys and heart. We've had a couple of stomatitis dogs too.

This is also what i am terrified off.  Even last year after he got a scale and clean and polish, his breath smells bad. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by teddybeans

[Jumabaar]

Titre test should indicate if your dog is protected by the vaccinations it has already had. You may be able to freely socialise your dog. 

 

Not being vaccinated should not impact your dogs reaction at the vet. If he is worried then perhaps seeing a veterinary behaviourist to discuss an appropriate plan would help you ensure your dog is relaxed at the vet so you can provide appropriate treatment without worrying about him being stressed. 

 

Saliva production is more important than bones for dental health. A dog does not use all it’s teeth to eat bones. They are great mental enrichment which is why my dogs get bones. 

 

Even if these teeth are removed your dog may still be predisposed to dental problems and may need regular dentals anyway. 

 

You sound like an amazing and dedicated owner who wants to make sure your pup gets the best possible care. Having some plans in place (pre visit medications) and gathering more data (titre testing) will help you worry less and make sure your pup receives gold standard care. I think it can be useful to write down your concerns in point form and have a consult with your vet without your pup so you can discuss and plan what can be done to systematically address each of your problems. 

It can seem super overwhelming! Particularly when you only have 15 minutes AND you have your dog with you. Booking an extended consult, having a list and leaving you dog at home will make it easier to succeed. 

[tdierikx]

Bad breath can be indicative of digestive issues also... not just teetth/gum issues...

 

Maybe a full blood panel might be helpful to make sure all is well with your boy?

 

T.

[Rebanne]

On 5/30/2019 at 11:48 AM, PANDI-GIRL said:

@Rebanne  your dogs have bones for chewing I thought,   Don't  bones stop dental problems?   What happened,  Why did he need all his teeth removed,  Sounds awfull for him  

He had periodontal disease. Nothing kept it at bay. What decided me in the end was my cat. Poor Puddy needed some teeth out. No problem but he got periodontal disease and on his 3 rd dental in a matter of 6 weeks I said pull them all out. The vet did, the cat did fine. So, after talking to the vet, Sam got all his taken out as well. I just regret not doing it sooner.

[PANDI-GIRL]

Thanks, @Rebanne  I had no idea this could happen with dogs teeth,   Dog & cat teeth don't seem to last very long which is quite sad,    I'm glad it's not the same for people 

[Rebanne]

On 6/1/2019 at 10:23 AM, PANDI-GIRL said:

Thanks, @Rebanne  I had no idea this could happen with dogs teeth,   Dog & cat teeth don't seem to last very long which is quite sad,    I'm glad it's not the same for people 

My cat was in his early teens when his problem occurred and Sam was a race bred greyhound and they seem prone to periodontal disease. None of my show bred greys have ever needed a cleaning and only one has had a tooth removed. So not all doom and gloom

[teddybeans]

On 5/31/2019 at 12:57 AM, Jumabaar said:

Saliva production is more important than bones for dental health. A dog does not use all it’s teeth to eat bones. They are great mental enrichment which is why my dogs get bones. 

 

I have another question now that you mention that a dog does not use all its teeth to eat bones.  My two I suspect doesn't chew their kibbles, both just woofs it down, I'm always curious how they are able to just swallow it.  I never hear the crunch crunch sound when they eat, could that be a reason for his bad teeth because they don't chew?  But my other boy has better dental condition and doesn't have the bad doggy breath my younger one has.  Both are no longer puppies, they are almost 10.

[Papillon Kisses]

On 30/05/2019 at 3:13 PM, Deeds said:

Dr Christine Hawke in Sydney is a specialist in animal dentistry.  She is with Advanced Veterinary Dentistry.

 

I can highly recommend Dr Christine!

https://sydneypetdentistry.com.au/

 

She had brilliant bedside manner and low stress handling of my chihuahua x who has an anxiety disorder. She waited until he felt comfortable before examining him and worked with me to keep him feeling safe. She could tell from his body language that one particular part of his mouth was very sore, so she didn’t go near it when checking his mouth in the consult. No point traumatizing the little guy when you can only have a proper look at it under anaesthesia anyway.

 

My chihuahua also sees a veterinary behaviourist and they worked together to make sure he had the best pre, during, and after surgery pain & anxiety med protocol. It was all about making it as low stress for him as possible and giving him back a pain-free mouth. If he needs another dental we will go to wherever she is!

 

BTW he has few teeth and only one canine left. No problems eating. And some of his best sparkling white teeth needed removal (I brush daily) when some gunky ones just needed a good clean. If they hadn’t been removed his jaw would have eventually broken as disease had eaten a hole in it, only seen on xrays.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Papillon Kisses

[teddybeans]

My boy ended up getting more than a handful of teeth pulled as the X-ray showed bone loss and it had to go.  Including the molars.

 

He is doing well well after surgery, almost like nothing happened.

 

im curious about how the stitches work, vet says it will desolve over time.  How do they desolve, they look pretty thick to me.

[SchnauzerMax]

On 12/06/2019 at 6:54 PM, teddybeans said:

My boy ended up getting more than a handful of teeth pulled as the X-ray showed bone loss and it had to go.  Including the molars.

 

He is doing well well after surgery, almost like nothing happened.

 

im curious about how the stitches work, vet says it will desolve over time.  How do they desolve, they look pretty thick to me.

With most dogs, they just dissolve. With my Max, they didn’t and had to be removed.

Just keep checking his mouth and if they don’t dissolve, take him back to the vets.

[teddybeans]

11 hours ago, SchnauzerMax said:

With most dogs, they just dissolve. With my Max, they didn’t and had to be removed.

Just keep checking his mouth and if they don’t dissolve, take him back to the vets.

Thanks, how long do I wait before I need to take to the vet?

[SchnauzerMax]

From memory, normal stitches are 10 days to 2 weeks to be removed. So, if they are still in evidence then, ask your vet. 

[teddybeans]

9 minutes ago, SchnauzerMax said:

From memory, normal stitches are 10 days to 2 weeks to be removed. So, if they are still in evidence then, ask your vet. 

Thanks!