Unplanned litter

[asal]

yes desex them as babies, stop the cycle. always assume the worst of someone wanting a pet today. I know plenty of people with frenchies and none of them are breeding their pets and none of them bought them already butchered before they were 8 weeks old.

 

this is supposed to be a purebred forum.

 

this is supposed to be a place where people who want a puppy are encouraged to come.

 

what the message repeated over and over instead is anyone who wants a puppy, be it pet.. which 99 percent of people want,  Even those I know who wonder about breeding a litter one day down the track and become a registered breeder,  90 percent of them, change their mind.  Ask any breeder. Its hard work and it cost mega if something goes wrong... and when the patient is your much loved pet, most decider never to risk their life again.

 

So keep it up.  constantly assume the worst.

 

So no puppy born will get the chance to grow as nature intended, it will be cut up and its insides altered before its 8 weeks because EVERY ONE who wants a pet is a liar and intends breeding it unto death or dumped.

 

funny how few purebred toy dogs, even large breed, registered or not can be found in the pounds if you are as right as all these comments indicate?

Edited May 17, 2019 by asal

[Panto]

14 hours ago, Flick71 said:

Hi guys

I have done some research and had a long chat to my friend. We have decided that we are going to sell the pups as Frenchies x's.

I have become a DACO breeder, as I need to be to sell them in S.A., they get vaccinated and microchipped in 5wks, then I'll be advertising them, probably on Gumtree.

To surrender to AWL or RSPCA in S.A. it costs $70, which covers desexing etc. which is fair enough.

This way i can screen homes for them and they won't be used for breeding, as they will have to be desexed at 6mths, being microchipped there will be a record. I can't see them taking long to sell. Then with the proceeds mum will be spayed.

I have mum and pups at mine as its easier for me to care for them. The two girls im supplement feeding under vet advice, as they are very small and struggling to feed off mum. Their boofhead brothers are hogs lol

I'm a little tired doing so much research, feeding etc. lol but I think this is the best option now.

The big shame about all of this is I'm quite confident they are pure frenchies, or frenchie x bulldog

Thankyou again;)

What makes you say this? It would take a certain level of expertise to determine this, or that it was known and told from the previous seller this was the case.

 

I'm also confused why you're the breeder now and looking after them when this is your friend's dog and your friend's problem?

[Rebanne]

The reference to desexing is the new laws in SA state all pets must be desexed by 6 months. Most of us know that is very unlikely to be happening. ETA not saying Flick won't get the bitch desexed but maybe one? of the puppy buyers. Just because it's law doesn't mean it will be done

 

http://www.dogandcatboard.com.au/breeder-registration-faqs

 

http://www.dogandcatboard.com.au/news/the-time-to-desex-your-pet-is-now

Edited May 17, 2019 by Rebanne

[asal]

beautiful Panto

 

keep up the good work, guilt trip the person who was foolish enough to ask for advice.

 

Hang in there Flick71, do your best for them and ignore the guilt trippers, they are not the majority of people. Although the purebred world seems to attract the precious who feel they are ordained by god to decide who is perfect enough to the allowed into their ranks.

 

Mind you next week their best friend may decide they are not as perfect as they had believed and then the slanders will begin.

 

and the covert phone calls to council inspectors and the animal welfare groups to inspect them for violations, and so the harrassmant, witch hunt and inquisitions begin of the suspect.  Been in the dog world since 1978 and it was nothing like the last 20 years of self elimination..

 

History just keeps repeating itself... no witch hunts or heretic burning are allowed these days, but now its the thrill of the chase to eliminate and destroy backyard breeders and puppy farmers.  Notice the definition of both is as vague as the parameters to drown or burn a witch or a heretic?   

 

nothing like a good cleansing of the neighbourhood to make yourself feel virtuous for some.

 

Blissfully ignorant that some one they trust, or more likely someone they have offended,  decides to out them for elimination.....  the dark ages lust to purge still lurks today

 

no one seems to remember they will probably be next

[asal]

9 minutes ago, Rebanne said:

The reference to desexing is the new laws in SA state all pets must be desexed by 6 months. Most of us know that is very unlikely to be happening.

 

http://www.dogandcatboard.com.au/breeder-registration-faqs

 

http://www.dogandcatboard.com.au/news/the-time-to-desex-your-pet-is-now

very true,  how long has mandatory vaccination and microchipping been law? decades?

 

I am still getting calls to chip unvaccinated and un chipped puppies.  Even recently from my own grandchild, who should know by a country mile how illegal that is...".BUT nanna, I HAD to rescue it!"

 

strange that not one of the people they bought their puppy from was a registered breeder?

 

oh and NONE of them have used their darling backyard bred puppy for breeding, funny that?   The Majority are unregistered purebreds, some beautiful representatives of their breed... .. good gene pool available to refresh the purebreds when they need new blood, like the Australian Stumpy Tailed Cattledog needed to bring in new blood.

 

Wonder if they back stab each other too, the unregistered breeders?

 

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by asal

[persephone]

16 minutes ago, Panto said:

What makes you say this? It would take a certain level of expertise to determine this, or that it was known and told from the previous seller this was the case.

Indeed. And if crossed with a bulldog ..what skeletal /skin problems might the poor little mites  have ? 

Sadly the course you've taken is not the most responsible , despite much sound advice from caring and experienced  members of D O L . 
Selling these pups  which have not been desexed almost guarantees that some of them will be bred  & onsold 
They will be bred with NO background on parentage/health/temperament information .
They will be bred , with all their inherited breathing and body deformities/problems passed on .... any unkown genetic problems impacting upon the lives of innocent babies. 
This saddens me  like you wouldn't believe . 
 

[asal]

so? my nieces purebred, registered ankc frenchie must have forged papers?

 

since he cannot have been bred by an ankc kennel if he needs an operation to remove his oversize palette which every year is blocking his breathing, now to the extent his vet has advised the next summer can only be worse than last.. He lives in a air conditioned home, but just to go outside to do his business, he overheats so quickly is in distress by the time he comes inside.

 

as my vet explained, when breeders shorten the face, the genes do not shorten the tongue or palette.... so they either hang out, in the case of the tongue. or impede breathing in the case of the palette.

 

chihuahua's have the same problem... see it over and over again, newbies wondering why their darling baby is "choking".   as my vet advises, put your finger on the muzzle and push it downwards to the chest, this will flick the palette up and away from the airways.

 

pity not enough was known to avoid breeding them with the problem when the breeds were being created and features became exaggerated.

[asal]

23 minutes ago, Snook said:

I mean this genuinely and not in a snarky way. You need therapy. I know you've been traumatised by what you've experienced but you see conspiracies and danger everywhere, and think everyone is either out to get you, or secretly in league with the RSPCA, if they disagree with you. I know I'm not the first person to say this to you on this forum but I really hope you will seek some professional help.

you obviously do not breed and are not a registered ankc breeder or you would know first hand  :-)

 

just telling it like it is.  kept silent for decades as I saw the poison creeping into my friends, "to be ethical we have to eliminate back yard breeders" "to be ethical we have to eliminate any puppy farmers in the membership" .. ... finally asked them,   "You have a backyard, so aren't you just at much at risk of one day going to be targeted?"    

 

you cant blame the rspca for phone calls that drop people in their lap .

 

rspca used to be a great group of people.. many of my friends, even my vet worked for them. 

 

well until the change came in the 90's  ... You forget my vet was rspca head vet for victoria before hugh worth...   he left then because it was corrupted, years before he moved to nsw and began his practice here... are you going to respectfully submit he has mental health issues too?  Along with my now ex inspector friends and ex kennel workers?

 

There are still some great people working there, hoping to "improve from the inside" .  

 

As for the ones still trying from the inside, wish them all the luck in the world. 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by asal

[Rebanne]

1 hour ago, asal said:

 

Mind you next week their best friend may decide they are not as perfect as they had believed and then the slanders will begin.

 

and the covert phone calls to council inspectors and the animal welfare groups to inspect them for violations, and so the harrassmant, witch hunt and inquisitions begin of the suspect.  Been in the dog world since 1978 and it was nothing like the last 20 years of self elimination..

 

 

Get a grip asal

[moosmum]

While I understand the concerns of people on this forum, I agree with Asal and see the mental health comments as unhelpful,  at best. And a poor example of discrediting those you disagree with out having to resort to logic or fact.

 

The O.P has shown concern for the welfare of mother and pups, a desire to achieve best outcomes, and operate with responsibility and within the law.

If those without the experience and familiarity of potential problems feel they can come back for advise, many of those can  be avoided.

The education of your customer base is a  responsibility of breeders that increases with  knowledge and experience,. It doesn't decrease. Its not void when that assistance is to a non ANKC member. 

If that were true,  ANKC would  serve no real purpose to its environment or support base. ANKC purpose would not be to dogs, only to pedigrees. ANKC  will continue to decline with no purpose beyond its 'self'.

 

This attitude of censure for what ocurrs outside of ANKC rules and protocols, assuming the worst possible outcomes, ensures they will continue. It ensures that breeders will continue to desex babies unformed, instead of addressing the cause.

 

If the public that supports registered breeders are so irresponsible such actions are 'needed', I think ANKC and other registering bodies need to look to their own responsibilities to a healthier environment before they supply it.

 

I would simply not sell a dog to a person who I felt was unable to make important decisions  on its welfare and follow through.

When the public are unfit to make those decisions why breed indeed.

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by moosmum

[juice]

I disagree , I think the op came here looking for a way to sell the pups for more . All the advice on finding a good rescue has been disregarded. 

[asal]

Don't worry, think the op has got the message loud and clear.... be surprised if you ever hear from him or her again.   

 

why do so many of you have such a low opinion of your own species?

 

You know no matter how lovable your dog is, if the opportunity arised, it can and will kill without compunction. be it a lizard, rat, rabbit or even another dog and run to you wagging its tail... with not a clue that is not permissible for a human to do that, but it is natural instinct for a dog. no matter how often you call it a fur child, that is the talk of Peta and animal rights, not a person who knows and still loves dogs for what they really are.. they have not a clue about our laws and what constitutes good manners?

 

You have to train them what is not acceptable and what is..... they are not evil..... they live by their instincts.... yep they are born with a canine set of rules

 

Our dogs havnt a clue our politicians felt to need to write laws that if your dog kills it will be put down just like any human murderer was once, even many innocents.... a human can protest innocence and still be convicted ....so what chance does a dog have?

..... its perfectly normal for a a dog not brought up with birds, rats, mice, guinea pigs, rabbits, cats, chooks, ducks, geese, sheep, alpacas and goats, even cattle to chase and maul them, even to kill them. They have no concept this is wrong, It is our job to teach them, or keep them from gaining the opportunity.

The dog is not the criminal, the owners that do not prevent them the opportunity is the criminal...

Some owners do not even see their dog has attitude problems even to people, or they and whoever they may attack would not end up being mauled, some to death as noted in the News, forum this morning.

 

quite a few seem to have mental issues towards their fellow humans..

 

maybe stay clear of forums and keep to hugging your pets, instead of attributing motives to people you have never met?

 

this is a purebred dog forum, not a coven of dog rescues, despising breeders or anyone asking for help and advice, in case you are not aware of it?

Edited May 17, 2019 by asal

[Maddy]

3 hours ago, asal said:

 

 

this is a purebred dog forum, not a coven of dog rescues, despising breeders or anyone asking for help and advice, in case you are not aware of it?

Huh, it's almost like you do have a thing against rescues and my point in that other thread was entirely valid.
As an aside though, you don't have to be a dog rescuer to give a crap about animal welfare. 

 

Anyway, the OP got the information they needed, so they don't really have much reason to come back  If they were actually interested in doing the right thing by the puppies, numerous suggestions were made and information/contacts given. Help and advice was given. 

[cannibalgoldfish]

Yes desexing young dogs can have problems for some dogs, but most are fine. There are just as many health risks with un desexed dogs. How about considering a dog that wasn't conceived can't have any health issues, either from being desexed or from being bred from?  That's looking to the future. 

 

I don't think the OP was doing a dodgy, or trying to drive up prices. But with the breed mentioned, I would not let them go without desexing them. Sure some people will be genuine and won't breed them but there are many more who see "French Bull dog= money". Either onselling for triple price or breeding to add to the fad. Yes, Frenchies are a huge fad right now! Such a fad in fact that they being stolen frequently. So you might have the best homes lined up, and they are responsible people who don't plan to breed their dog. But then dog gets nicked because it's a popular breed and there are other dodgy people who know this. 

 

 

[Flick71]

I apologise for posting on this forum looking for advice which i thought thats what this forum is about.

If you read the circumstances you would realise the dog was sold already in pup whether accidently or not.

To be quite blunt i have me reason to bullshit my story, and honestly thought I could get some suggestions.

There is currently no proof these puppies are not purebred, but not being knowledgeable about the breed, I thought I'd ask here as I am not getting any success elsewhere

Again, I apologise for even posting on here at all.

My original thought of being judged for a genuine situation has now made me feel like a criminal, neither myself or my friend do not see dollar signs just the recuperation of costs of something out of our control, and to find homes where they will be looked after properly.

I now feel unwelcome on here, so will no longer be commenting on this thread, so say what you will.

I also wont be bothering to post for advice in the future, as being ridiculed is not something I enjoy or should have to put up with.

Thankyou to those who gave helpful advice, it is very appreciated.

[cannibalgoldfish]

Welcome to Dol.. lol. Gist is, your friend's dog now has pups they didn't expect when buying said dog.  Raising pups can be a financial burden (be glad the mum didn't need a C section!) and it's not what your friend was expecting. Dogs "breeder" was probably a byber otherwise they wouldn't be breeding from a limited register dog, but that's not important now. Now there is a litter of pups that you and your friend want to do the right thing by.  

Surrendering them to a good foster group (people suggest yellowgirl?) is a good option.  Pounds/RSPCA will just sell them for their fad value. 

 

Sadly this breed means there will be heaps of interest, not all good   Just do what you/your friend feel best about. End of the day it's up to you.

 

They may very well be pure french bull dogs, but they might not, and it doesn't change how good a pet they will be :D If you do sell them, sell them as crosses. That is being honest as you can be because without actual papers they could be either. There are a few cross breeds that are dead ringers for pure breeds, and there are some badly bred pure breeds that look like a cross. 

[Flick71]

And for those who want to judge  the mother dog has pedigree paper, 5hey are limited registration.

My friend, who is on DSP for reason i dont need to explain, and just wanted a loyal companion. He spent the majority of his savings to do so and made the choice himself and was saving to get her spayed asap.

He had no idea she was in pup until a week before hand, when he asked me to come and look at her. We took her to the vet and an ultrasound confirmed  7 pups,  she was due to have c-section under vet advice but gave birth naturally.

I posted on here because I am my friends carer, and that's my job to help him.

We have made several attempts to contact the owner, even went to her house, but with no success.

I have spend the last two weeks not only looking after the pups and mum for him but endless hours researching answers to our predicament.

I tried contacting DACO and even 2wks later i was no closer to getting answers.

Until I posted on here, until I came on here today i was welcomed and received good advice.

If you want to judge anyone, judge the breeder, for not offering the support promised on her website and gumtree advert.

Perhaps my friend was naive when purchasing this dog but we are not to blame for the predicament we are in.

I just want my friend and myself to recoup the costs of these pups he didn't expect or want, and to find them loving pet homes.

Again thankyou for those who gave friendly advice.

And thankyou to those who have judged the situation

Best of luck to you all x

[cannibalgoldfish]

I'm not sure what you want?  Advice?  you have been given it. Dog was from a byb, they don't care abut on going costs, they obviously don't give a damn they sold said dog in pup. No one can help you with that, it's up to them and your friend. 

You wanna recoup costs, sell the pups as frenchy cross,  they will sell because they are so popular. 

You want papers? You wont get papers. The mother has limited registration. Meaning she should not be bred from. She can have the best pedigree papers in the world but they are on limited. SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN BRED. This is why everyone here is harping on about desexing puppies of a popular breed. Some people got offended and said people should trust the owner not to breed from their dog. The simple fact that your whole post stems from someone not doing the right thing and breeding from a dog on limited papers shows why people desex young puppies. 

 

 

[juice]

.

Edited May 18, 2019 by juice

[moosmum]

On 17/05/2019 at 2:10 PM, juice said:

I disagree , I think the op came here looking for a way to sell the pups for more . All the advice on finding a good rescue has been disregarded. 

The op came here asking help in navigating their legal and ethical responsibilities.

Not  how  to 'ethically' avoid them. 

I'm sure that advise was appreciated, as an option given,  but  the op has no obligation legally or ethically to  accept that option.

 

Judgement on outcomes is very premature. By assuming the worst of possible out comes is a given,  The 'education of the public' thats so badly needed to avoid those is not given, its taken away.

If you take away the rights of people to make decisions on the welfare of their own animals, they will understand less of  how  to do that, or why some things are done as they are.

The problems get worse, not better.

When the idea is promoted that pups be 'ethically' desexed before sale, because people can't be trusted to care for their their own companion animals, thats not addressing the problem. It does however feed  the A.R agenda. Big time.

 

Weather or not a profit is made should be irrelevant. Choosing the best homes for the resulting pups is not, though I doubt the members here will have the chance to assist in that outcome . The chance for education through this forum has been lost. Again. Because ANKC members and supporters don't support  education of the environment thats needed to  support them, as breeders. 

They believe, somehow, that  shrinking that breeders environment to ANKC alone will some how leave them an environment worth having at all.

 

So easy to argue that any environment left is incapable of responding favourably to Dogs as a species, or that keeping them serves any real purpose.