greentea Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 Hello everyone, My 11 week old Griffon Bruxellois was examined by the vet who had A.) Never seen a GB before and B.)Questioned whether it was a new/designer breed. Luckily I had my new hardcover book about the breed in my bag and I showed the vet that he was a beautiful example of a genuine breed not a "designer dog". Upon examining my beautiful pup she said he had a heart murmur that "should probably sort itself out...hopefully" and "it appears his right knee is questionable. At 16 weeks if it is still this way then he will require surgery for a luxating patella." Of course I was horrified. Our breeder has never heard of Griffons getting heart murmurs or luxating patellas. Has anyone else? Was this just a vet who knows nothing of our breed getting carried away? If my baby does have a wonky knee can I still show him? Please help! Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 Greentea A quick surf of the internet will inform your breeder that patella luxation, while not common in the breed, is hardly unknown. Very few small breeds are immune from this problem but some pups diagosed early with slipping patella lose the problem with age and muscle mass. Here's one example from the net on breed health - try to find a vet that knows something about the breed if you can: Ailments There are some general health concerns for all small breeds such as subluxating patellas (slipping kneecaps) and collapsing tracheas. Some can have such problems with the trachea that pulmonary hypertension and then congestive heart failure can develop. Abnormally small specimens of Griffons are prone to hydrocephalus, thus the breeding of mini Griffons should not be encouraged. Griffons have other problems particularly associated with their facial anatomy. An elongated soft palate, which can inhibit breathing, occurs in the breed, as do stenotic nares (narrowed nostrils.) Both of these conditions can be corrected surgically and can be identified quite early on by veterinary examination. Protopsis (expulsion of the eye from the socket) can occur in the breed if the head is restrained too vigorously. Webbed feet can occur in the breed and while this is a defect, it does not cause any health problems and the dog can get on completely fine with this distinctive anatomy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greentea Posted May 13, 2005 Author Share Posted May 13, 2005 Thanks PoodleFan... I am pretty stressed right now. Our little one has cost us a lot of money and the thought of having to spend thousands on surgery is quite frightening, not to mention painful for our baby. It seems weird that the vet we took him to found these things the day after he arrived with us, and it was only 2 weeks early that the breeder had him vaccinated and her vet found nothing wrong with him. I am hoping our vet was just off the mark. Maybe I should find a new vet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 (edited) At the very least Greentea, get a second opinion before committing to any surgery. Let nature take its course and give your new baby the best start you can. Luxating patella don't bar a dog from the showring, but if the gait is affected you wouldn't do well. You certainly shouldn't breed from an affected dog. One of my dogs was diagnosed at 8 months with a mild luxation. An improvement in fitness and muscle mass eliminated the problem. :rolleyes: I think there is at least one other GB owner here - hopefully you can get some advice from people knowledgeable about the breed. Edited May 13, 2005 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greentea Posted May 13, 2005 Author Share Posted May 13, 2005 Thanks again Poodlefan. Your little one who was diagnosed at 8 months- did you do any special exercises with him/her or did the muscle mass increase on its own with age? I wonder if maybe there are some little exercises I could do with him to help. I feel sick just thinking about something serious being wrong with my little guy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 The dog who was diagnosed was a rehomer who hadn't had a lot of exercise.. I would restrict exercise to just off lead play until the pup is 6 months or so in age and then build up to a reasonable distance walk each day. At your pups age, its too early for any 'body building'. :rolleyes: I don't know much about GBs but they seem to be hardy little dogs. Again, hopefully someone knowledgeable about the breed can advise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 This is a young dog and you have a fair chance of stopping the knee problem and fixing it as well. the problem is caused by the ligaments and cartlige around the joint not the joint and its all about how well the muscles etc work to pull it all back into place. So take a very long look at your diet . Raw food would be best as this gives magnesium and other minerals which will help the ligaments to expand and contract properly . You need to be careful your diet is balanced with both minerals and live vitamins to help them to work , enzymes to help assimilate them . It also much about trauma and exercise so have a look at how the dog is being exercised look for steps and restrict rough play as much as you can. Aloe vera juice [ one teaspoonful 3 times per day ] will help heaps and cant do any harm . If you see runny poos back the doseage off a bit . LP isnt just about genes but also very much about diet and exercise so make sure you concentrate a fair bit on these. All breeds of dogs can get heart murmurs, some disappear by about 12 weeks and some stay Most dont cause any kind of problem just as humans have arythmia and can lead normal lives so can dogs. Serious things that cause problems with the heart dont normally show up until they are older. Its thought that the murmurs and other heart issues can be caused by a lack of some amino acids in particular taurine which is found in raw meat Some studies show that dogs fed commercial dog food when they are pregnant are more at risk of whelping pups with this problem as taurine is destroyed by cooking and storage . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greentea Posted May 14, 2005 Author Share Posted May 14, 2005 Steve, what types of raw food exactly should I feed him? At the moment I still have him on the diet the breeder raised him on- Eukanuba and cooked lamb mince. The vet told me if I gave him raw meat he would get an infection caused by the bacteria... Is that wrong? I don;t want to make him sick. Please tell me exactly what to buy him and I will go out and get it. It is so hard to know what's right when there is so much info out there about what to and what not to feed puppies- it is all so confusing! I have been giving him the puppy/kitten milk with Thiamine and Taurine and he seems to love that, is this the wrong thing to give him? I'm so confused! He is such an active little guy, jumping and running all the time and his knee seems to work just as well as the other knee. I am having trouble getting a vet reccomendation from other Griffon people in Sydney because there are so few breeders, none respond to my emails. I think I need to find a vet who is used to seeing show dogs and will not tell me off about his docked tail and his being "in tact"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlyking Posted May 15, 2005 Share Posted May 15, 2005 The vet told me if I gave him raw meat he would get an infection caused by the bacteria... Is that wrong? I don;t want to make him sick. Good heavens above. What about all the dogs in the wild? How many dogs do you know that love to eat a birds, rabbits or some other animal raw? In my opinion your new pup is more likely to have far more problems from eating the Eukanuba (or any commercial dry food) than it is from eating raw meat. My pups are raised on a raw diet and never eat cooked meat. They have raw chicken necks, wings, frames etc as well as raw beef, lamb and pork either minced or in chunks. Although for the young pups - up to about 6 months I do tend to use human grade food. I have fed raw meat for over 30 years and never yet had a dog with an infection from the bacteria. Really these Vets have no idea other than what the dog food companies feed them, which is to brainwash them into thinking they have the best food and to convince "us" to feed the food the pet food companies want us to buy! As far as I am concerned - and this is my opinion and it is not important to me how other people feed their dogs - feeding most commercial food - dry, tinned etc. is akin to feeding your children on McDonnalds all the time. Find another vet and enjoy your baby. As for the heart murmer, as long as it is not a major one there is a very good chance that it will not cause any problems at all. This could also be a reaction to the vaccination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacklabrador Posted May 15, 2005 Share Posted May 15, 2005 "The vet told me if I gave him raw meat he would get an infection caused by the bacteria... " Oh dear....thats the funniest thing I heard all day!! Sorry Greentea... but your vet tells you this because he would much rather that you buy the Eukanuaba than feed your dog on a natural diet. This is because he doesn't get commission from the butcher My goodness!! How DID those wild dogs survive eating raw meat all those years?? Honey if you want information on natural diets - in particular the BARF diet the guys here can help you out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 Im sorry I didnt come back to have a look until now. Cooked lamb mince has nothing much left in it that your dog needs and it may be even having an impact on the problem. Firstly when you cook meat you kill off all of the amino acids, and the vitamins with some of the minerals. When you feed meat without the bone whats actually happening is that you are feeding a food high in phosphorous with no calcium. Phosphorous needs calcium for it to go from one end of the dog to the other so if you are feeding too much phosphorous it will leach the clacium and a couple of other minerals from the bones and the joints . Your dry food has a balance of this but adding the extra meat may have an adverse effect. Then you have a situaton where commercial food has a limited amount of vitamins as these are killed off in the processsing and storage process andno enzymes which are used to assimilate foods and get the liver, pancreas etc functioning properly . If you stop for a minute and consider your own diet or your childrens then it puts the whole thing into an easier perspective, You know that you cant possibly give yourself all you need in the right combinations and amounts at every meal, you know that when you go shopping and cook that you need to have a variety of foods andyou try for a balanceofall youneedoveraperiod of abouta week. Believe me if it really were possible to give everything a body needs every sinfgle meal in a form such as this that would keephumans healthy we would have seen this on the market by now but weknow its not possible. Eat nothing else but big macs every single feed and your body will start to yell and scream at you that it wants a change and more variety. You also know that foods with the least amount of processing are best for your immune system and to keep you healthy. Fresh fruits and vegies etc. The only reason we think we need to sweat more over a dogs diet thanour own is because of propoganda put out by commercial dog food companies. Try some of these links but remember you dont need to be a rocket scientist . All you need is a small knowledge of how the dog evolved , which wasnt with cooking utensils so its not suseptible to the bacterias we are andsome common sense. http://www.bluegrace.com/barf.html http://www.rawmeatybones.com/ http://www.barfworld.com/html/learn_more/barf_pups.shtml http://www.barfworld.com/main.shtml http://www.barfers.com/bigpicture.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greentea Posted May 16, 2005 Author Share Posted May 16, 2005 Thanks so much Steve, I will definitely check out those sites this evening when I get home. I don't have any children anf my little gremlin means the world to me thats why I am so stressed about all the conflicting info out there. It ios hard to know what is right. I will go to the butcher and get him to mince some top quality steak for me that way it will be high quality. It is no good just giving the meat without the bones as well right? So I am going to have to read up on the bones stuff. he is such a tiny little fellow I will have to pick the right type and size bones... This Wednesday I am taking him for a second opinion on the knee and heart issue. Fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 Greentea, chicken necks and wing tips are good raw meaty bones for the littlies... You can alway smash the necks with a mallet if he can't manage them - but I'll bet he will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greentea Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 Well good news on the health of my puppy. We took him to a specialist orthopedic vet who said he absoluetly did NOT have a luxating patella not does he have a heart murmur! Also thanks everyone for the advice about raw food diet. So far he loves it so much! He has minced scotch fillet for breakfast, chicken mince for lunch followed by a chicken wing in four pieces and at dinner time he has minced lamb steak. Not so sure about the veges/fibre component though. I gave him an egg hardboiled but chopped up and he didn't like that. The meat and bones he adores! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 This has nothing to do with you greentea but this is a classic example of vets who misdiagnos & can create all sorts of issues with breeder/buyer.Its so frustrating & uncalled for i hope you sent a report from the specialist vet to the one who claimed his problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greentea Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 Yes well they are at the same practice so I carried on a lot...(to say the least!) Basically what he (the good vet) said, was that it is possible that there was some movement with the patella but that because it isn't moving now then it was probably a case of underdeveloped ligaments which have now developed enough. With the murmur he said that in puppies they can come and go and are no cause for concern. He said we should have his knees checked again at 16 weeks of age just to be sure, but on the visit with him there was no movement at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Greentea I'd recommend you feed your little guy less mince and more meat on the bone. Mince on its own does not have the calcium/phosphorus mix that pups need to grow well. Perhaps more chicken wings/necks in place of the mince? You will also need to add some vegetables to his diet if you want to feed all raw. If not, then kibble and chicken wings would be the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Greentea I'd recommend you feed your little guy less mince and more meat on the bone. Mince on its own does not have the calcium/phosphorus mix that pups need to grow well. Perhaps more chicken wings/necks in place of the mince? You will also need to add some vegetables to his diet if you want to feed all raw. If not, then kibble and chicken wings would be the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greentea Posted May 23, 2005 Author Share Posted May 23, 2005 Yes I was suspicious that maybe all the minced steak was a bad idea... He doesn't like the chicken wings, he doesn't mind playing with them but he never eats them... I bought the necks today but he picked it up carried it into his bed in his puppy pen and fell asleep next to it! Very cute... but not quite right! I was thinking about getting some of those patties you can buy with all the raw meat and the veges mixed in, only they contain garlic and there is this big article on the Annandale Vet website warning people not to feed dogs onion and garlic... Tricky stuff! HERE ATTACHED IS A PICTURE OF HENRY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 (edited) Greentea: Yes I was suspicious that maybe all the minced steak was a bad idea...He doesn't like the chicken wings, he doesn't mind playing with them but he never eats them... I bought the necks today but he picked it up carried it into his bed in his puppy pen and fell asleep next to it! Very cute... but not quite right! Never under estimate the motivational power of hunger... give him the wing, if he plays with it, remove it and offer it again at the next meal. Smashing them up with a mallet or hammer (put it plastic bag first) can help get them started and so can making sure they are at room temperature. Edited to add: Henry is very cute. Edited May 23, 2005 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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